AIBU to think refusing treatment from non-white medical professionals should have consequences?

I am talking specifically about racially abusing NHS staff. I do not think past trauma gives you a pass on racially abusing innocent people.

I also think people are trying to “whatabout” the type of stories being referred to in OP by using edge cases. But OP has been back and clarified her position.

Not because they were racist but because they had chosen to decline treatment.

I am not suggesting that the NHS should refuse to treat people simply because they are racist.

I am suggesting that the NHS should not offer people a choice of medical professional based on skin colour.

People can either accept the treatment that is on offer or not, as they wish.

We are talking specifically about sexual trauma being triggered by ethnicity and/or the sex of clinicians. Those who abuse NHS staff for their race are in a different category, for the purpose of the OP. There is a middle ground that's been repeatedly dismissed on here.

That sounds terrible for that patient, and I think we’d reasonably consider that to be a mental health need that should be met by providing either a woman or a man of a different ethnicity, alongside a chaperone. That’s very obviously different from asking for a white doctor, as if all people from all ethnicities other than white are a danger.

I can see a situation where a non white doctor does something patient unhappy with unrelated to their skin colour and white patient too scared to say something in case accused of racism

I could easily have been that person on the one occasion I had to report a nurse who assaulted me, @IHateRainbows. They happened to be black, but then so were most of the other staff on the ward, and though I pointed out that the overall care had been brilliant, still I was subjected to some pretty clear insinuations about what my motive in reporting them actually was

Because their veiled accusations were baseless they simply ended up making fools of themselves, but it was an interesting window into just what some NHS staff will bring to bear if the least criticism is raised

The art of minimising is alive and kicking.

I think people who racially abuse NHS staff are still part of the problem irrespective of their past experiences.

More minimising. Whenever there's an account, not a story, that doesn't fit a narrative, it's twisted into either being made up or so rare that it doesn't figure. Unreal. Grooming gang vibes.

No but those who are, deserve recognition not to be told they are in a minority. They aren't the problem.

A little imagination would tell you that there are going to be valid reasons, surely?

I know someone who was violently and repeatedly gang raped by men of a certain ethnicity, and way of dressing. That patient can, with some difficulty, tolerate non-intimate examinations from men. Men of certain appearance trigger flash backs- particularly when this patient is in a situation that they cannot easily leave/“escape”. Lying on a bed behind a curtain in a consulting room, would be one example of a situation likely to be a trigger. This patient has had extensive therapy but this is the remaining issue. In practice, they would usually just ask for a female HCP. If one was not available, for some examinations or a verbal face to face consultation, they would probably be able to tolerate a male HCP who was not of that ethnicity.

is that a “valid enough reason”, in your view? It is in mine.

The issue here are men. Not people - men or women - from a certain race/look
As per your story

But to be clear while avoiding things that trigger trauma or PTSD can be viewed as valid, do you really think most people racially abusing NHS staff and insisting that they only want staff of certain melanin levels are managing past trauma?

A little imagination would tell you that there are going to be valid reasons, surely?

I know someone who was violently and repeatedly gang raped by men of a certain ethnicity, and way of dressing. That patient can, with some difficulty, tolerate non-intimate examinations from men. Men of certain appearance trigger flash backs- particularly when this patient is in a situation that they cannot easily leave/“escape”. Lying on a bed behind a curtain in a consulting room, would be one example of a situation likely to be a trigger. This patient has had extensive therapy but this is the remaining issue. In practice, they would usually just ask for a female HCP. If one was not available, for some examinations or a verbal face to face consultation, they would probably be able to tolerate a male HCP who was not of that ethnicity.

is that a “valid enough reason”, in your view? It is in mine.

I don’t see how that’s a valid reason why being gang-raped by a group of men would have be a valid reason to reject treatment from a woman who shared their skin tone / ethnicity.

Whilst valid I would suggest this is an absolute minority of people .

A little imagination would tell you that there are going to be valid reasons, surely?

I know someone who was violently and repeatedly gang raped by men of a certain ethnicity, and way of dressing. That patient can, with some difficulty, tolerate non-intimate examinations from men. Men of certain appearance trigger flash backs- particularly when this patient is in a situation that they cannot easily leave/“escape”. Lying on a bed behind a curtain in a consulting room, would be one example of a situation likely to be a trigger. This patient has had extensive therapy but this is the remaining issue. In practice, they would usually just ask for a female HCP. If one was not available, for some examinations or a verbal face to face consultation, they would probably be able to tolerate a male HCP who was not of that ethnicity.

is that a “valid enough reason”, in your view? It is in mine.

A little imagination would tell you that there are going to be valid reasons, surely?

I know someone who was violently and repeatedly gang raped by men of a certain ethnicity, and way of dressing. That patient can, with some difficulty, tolerate non-intimate examinations from men. Men of certain appearance trigger flash backs- particularly when this patient is in a situation that they cannot easily leave/“escape”. Lying on a bed behind a curtain in a consulting room, would be one example of a situation likely to be a trigger. This patient has had extensive therapy but this is the remaining issue. In practice, they would usually just ask for a female HCP. If one was not available, for some examinations or a verbal face to face consultation, they would probably be able to tolerate a male HCP who was not of that ethnicity.

is that a “valid enough reason”, in your view? It is in mine.

What “valid reason” is there to not want a HCP of a particular ethnicity.

Stop trying to be woke.

In no other profession would you allow people to insult and abuse you and have to suck it up.

The NHS workers already have to deal with so much.
Why should they have to deal with abuse, that’s not why they went into their profession.

The NHS waiting lists are ridiculously long and most of us are grateful to be seen in a timely manner.

Why are we waiting behind people who are abusing the staff and kicking off because they want a different staff member.

They should absolutely be able to refuse care.
Any profession should be able to refuse service.

Trust me if they were poorly enough they would accept help from anyone.

Absolutely not, skin colour is irrelevant.

I must admit that I probably would feel very stressed/nervous if language or a very heavy accent was ever a barrier during a medical emergency again.

I don't suppose you recognise the racism within your own 'findings'. I am pretty certain that being condescending and patronising is not race-specific.

Before you cry racism you need to know a few facts. There are some countries, where up until recently you could

• buy a medical diploma outright, by paying a bribe to a medical institution, without attending it
• pay your talented medical fellow student to sit your exams for you
• pay your medical tutor to pass you when you do not deserve it.

This plague of corruption was present not only in African countries, but in the former socialist countries, aka Eastern Europe, I am afraid.

So there could be genuine concerns about the quality of foreign personnel.

Home-wise, there is a widening participation programme in some medical schools, where they accept people from ethnic minorities and poorer postcodes, who do not have academic ability to enter medical profession competitively and they continue to med school.

So there could be genuine concerns about the quality of widening participation candidates.

We also know that proper checks are not always carried out.

This is today's news (he was from Egypt) -

Oldham surgeon struck off after wrongly connecting patient's organs - BBC News

And this case is old, but I still can't forget it - a pregnant woman with appendicitis was killed by a junior foreign surgeon, who removed her ovary and stitched her up - because a senior foreign surgeon - Babatunde Coker - went home for a nap. Yes, for real, he went home for a nap.

Pregnant woman dies after ovary removed by mistake

And a hepatitis-positive surgeon from Pakistan infecting patients in Scotland

Surgeon infects heart patient with hepatitis | The Herald

Well, for starters- I think your description of racially abusing staff is not quite the same as saying “I’d rather see a white/insert ethnicity Dr”- the latter is likely racism but not necessarily abusive in the sense of verbal or physical aggression which would possibly result in refusal of care. And denying care is what the OP suggests- you can wrap it up however you like as patient is refusing care, but it is refusing to provide an alternative HCP for that particular instance of care. It is not complete denial of all care forevermore.

As to what happens in practice is, as ever, more nuanced. I would say that the majority of patients aren’t so blatant as to come out with what is clearly racism e.g. “I’m not seeing that black/Asian/Chinese etc Dr, so get me a white one”. That simply isn’t what they say for the most part. It can be thinly veiled, I would grant you, but it can be hard to solely attribute to racism without getting into slightly grey areas. For example, they’ll clock another difference that is more palatable- “I’d rather see a doctor who is male/female”, for instance- the opposite of the doctor they want to avoid.

In any case, frankly, in cases where it is not blatant racism at play we don’t have the time or the inclination to dally about hang-wringing and trying to work out if we can justify refusing to let them see someone else. We know it’s going to be easier all round- especially for the Dr who gets to avoid an awkward consult- and get on with it. Of course, sometimes it’s not possible- e.g. there is no-one appropriate to move them to, would be the most common reason- and then we just tell the patient and they make a decision to take it or leave it.

I’m a Dr. I can understand why your proposal could seem attractive, but I disagree with it. It’s all a bit virtuous and more about appearing to be so, rather than effective or supportive of those who might be victims of racism. I don’t think it will achieve anything- it won’t change a single racist persons view, it will be fuel to those who are already agitating race relations, and it will be very difficult to implement (who decides who gets denied care, and how is that documented etc).

It is also fraught with danger for the patient, the individual HCP and the health service- what do you think the impact will be when something inevitably goes wrong- which it will (and probably sooner, rather than later)? For example, I can quite easily foresee a situation where someone mistakenly accused of racism and denied care who then comes to serious harm; or someone with a valid reason to request an HCP not of a particular ethnicity. Just watch the shit hit the fan. The patient in question suffers, their family too possibly. And the person who made the call to deny care? Hung out to dry, would be my anticipated outcome- whether they had followed procedure or not. And if they are HCP their professional registration and career will be on the line. Why would I want to be put in that position? No thanks. And those with an agenda- manna from heaven for them.

Racism is a terrible scourge and I don’t condone it. However, as a Dr I would like all of my patients to be comfortable with the person providing their care. I would not want to be treating someone who did not want me to treat them- for whatever reason that might be- and most especially when it comes to physical examinations. That is not solely for their comfort, though that is important (even if I disagree with their reasoning and find it immoral)- it’s primarily because if they are clearly uncomfortable with me, that in turn makes me very uncomfortable too. Such patients are far more likely to be a difficult consultation and far more likely to complain. Even if later that is dismissed, it isn’t great to deal with. It’s just not good for either party.

I would say that there are lots of reasons why some people may not be at ease with the HCP- gender being the most obvious one. But in some cases, race is an issue due to that persons background.

I can also foresee a very grey area- how many patients would actually say “I’m not seeing Dr because I only want a white one?” Vs “I’d rather not see that Dr because x reason” (not a racist one)- you might suspect but cannot prove it. Additionally, I think you create a situation where patients with a valid reason to ask for an alternative HCP worry about refusing care from any non-white HCP because they fear being accused of racism- so they endure treatment from someone they are not confident in or avoid seeking treatment altogether.