To think that "difficult" people are life's winners?

I agree. Superficially it might look like they have many relationships - but they are not experiencing emotional intimacy. They are not emotionally trusted by others. They are tolerated and managed at emotional arms length for various reasons - money, family ‘harmony’, power etc - that’s not a satisfactory or sustainable emotional status. having someone like this in your circle / family on eggshells so they don’t kick off so from the outside and superficially they look to have friends - but there is no trusted mutual reciprocity going on - no real emotional connection.

I think you're conflating a bunch of different qualities. I am absolutely unapologetic about prioritising myself, and I think far more women would be happier if they did so. I am absolutely combative when called for, I hold opinions I'm happy to debate and defend. I put my work first when I need to. I don't think I'm any more demanding/intolerant/unself-reflective than anyone else, though. I'm certainly far less demanding than many a people-pleaser in my vicinity, the type who says 'Don't mind me, I'll sit in the dark' but actually expects you to know they're only saying that 'to be polite', and you're supposed to guess what they really mean, while they seethe with unexpressed resentment that you're not psychic.

However, I think you're mistaken in thinking that women who are opinionated and self-focused 'lack self-awareness', because by 'self-awareness' you mean 'be nice because you worry about whether people will like you if you aren't'. I don't worry at all about what people in general think of me, because it is a total waste of my time. I have lots of good, strong, lifelong friends around me, I'm a good friend, a decent parent, a decent wife, a good daughter, someone who volunteers, is interested in people, and who gives back to the world in whatever way I can.

Being mimsy and meek does not make you good. Someone you consider 'dominating' is just as likely to be a good person. You just resent that they don't creep around performing 'niceness' for the benefit of other people.

But the very same attitude will reap rewards when it comes to other like minded, kind, family members? I do get it, those people can be few and far between in many families and sometimes non existant, but then surely you can build on that good nature with your own nuclear family, or your own friendship choices? You will then reap the rewards for what you have nurtured and built.

Sounds like you’ve put some boundaries in with toxic family members. You are not a form of their supply anymore, so they’ll have to seek new sources.

Also, being overly empathetic can be a childhood adaptation to complex family backgrounds. You don’t need to be walked over anymore. You can use your empathy and good nature in a way that will serve you, in the long run.

Well better than being a cunt 🤷‍♂️

It's quite possible to be a lovely person without being a soaking wet lettuce and allowing others to walk over you.

Some people think I'm difficult. I have SEN children and have to fight very hard to get the support they're legally entitled too. If getting what they should have makes me difficult, so be it.

From experience being kind, empathetic, tolerant and generous has gotten me walked over and taken for a fool by difficult, demanding, self-victimising, self-absorbed family members.

Have I learnt my lesson - I hope so!

I think if people are too dominant other people can come to resent them. Being too passive just encourages everyone to walk all over you though.

I have seen it in my family...my sister is the wild card. Outgoing, talks about herself the whole time, and unpredictable (anger). Everyone tiptoes around her and tries to keep her happy. I'm the one who remembers to ask everyone how they are, listens more than talks and have the least dramatic life out of the whole family, and nobody is ever worried about upsetting me!

I didn’t vote as I wanted to tick both.

Your list sounded like narcissism.

Firstly, YANBU. Society does reward narcissism and the person can get “away with it” quite successfully for years. Exploiting family, relationships and jobs etc. So, yes I do agree.

Secondly YABU, because…… narcissism sure isn’t pretty in late adulthood and old age. It is particularly grim actually in old age. Many end up incredibly miserable despite material gain along the way. They need relational supply and by the time the narc is washed up and the good looks, deception and charm has faded away. Family and friends have long clocked on and boundaries have been set…. Apart from a few suckers, the narcs world becomes very narrow and they don’t spend their days in peace.

If one partner is difficult (demanding, domineering, strongly opinionated, lack self-awareness, self-serving, uncompromising, combative...), I'd say divorce would actually be a pretty successful outcome for the non-difficult partner.

It depends how you define “winning”. Yes they may be successful in the sense of career or getting what they want all the time, but they likely don’t have as a much respect or as many friends !
For example: If they left a workplace for a new role would people be glad they left, or genuinely miss them?

I work / have worked with people like this and I know which person I’d rather be.
You can appear to have all the markers of “success” like a good job, promotions and a nice house, but plenty of people can think you’re a bit of a dick & avoid spending any time with you unless they have to.

In individual ‘battles’ often yes. But they end up isolated and alone. People may be polite to them (out of fear!) but people don’t stay close.

Unfortunately yes I think a lot of the pushy assholes in life get more, the complainers who get people in trouble when they don’t always need to, people above say well they end up without good relationships but I honestly think they don’t care about people so that suits them

No, they don't stand you in better stead.

Being considerate, kind, self-aware, able to compromise, polite, reflective, tolerant is always better.

But you can be all of those things and still have very firm boundaries.

This is what (looking around on MN) a lot of people are missing.

And of course to remember that normal adult conversation is NOT 'confrontation'.

But you're assuming they're "successful" only from what you see from the outside.

How do you define "success" in a relationship?
Is their partner happy?
What has/does their partner sacrifice/d to make the relationship "successful"?
You can't know this stuff.

It may look like a "successful" relationship now, but who knows the future.

There’s a range of things within being difficult. It can mean standing up for yourself and not compromising for what you deserve (will still annoy some people) on the one end, and being selfish and outright rude on the other end.

I can see that this type of people can get seen and heard more, so they get their ways more especially in one-off situations. They make noises and most people avoid conflicts and follow the path of least resistance. Long-term relationships are different matters, personally and professionally.

No, I can confirm it’s definitely not just a male trait!

No, I'm one of them and it's just made me disliked and mistrusted. Same as my mum.
Probably OK for men though!!

I think lots of people with those traits don’t do well in life. They often end up bitter and alone.

To succeed they need combine their difficult side with a charming side… I don’t know anyone who’s been successful who is unremittingly difficult all the time! To succeed the ‘difficult’ person always have enough positive qualities to attract people, at least for a while.

I get the point you are all trying to make, that people appease difficult people for a quiet life, but I am struggling to think of a difficult person who is genuinely happy. They are usually fucking miserable, even when everyone bends to their will. So no, I wouldn’t describe them as life’s winners.