To think that "difficult" people are life's winners?

Some people are so difficult no-one wants to be around them at all. There’s a disabled autistic bloke in my village who was in an accident when he was 18. He’s 65 now. If you talk to him at all you get a monologue about how other people hate him and how difficult his life is.

he’s not wrong but most people don’t want to be around him for more than ten minutes.

there’s a sweet spot.

This thread reminds me of my MIL, she treats everyone badly but I think it took a long time for people to become wise to it as she also had a seemingly sweet side (which was likely also being used to manipulate). She's now older and her family want nothing to do with her as she's so bad for everyone's mental health. She would have looked like a winner originally but she's certainly not winning now!

I do too.
In my own example, it works with their friends who are similar and their partner who really doesn't care much about things. However, over time I've resented them walking all over me in the past and now have mega boundaries with them, which i don't have with anyone else at all, i bend over backwards for everyone else. They really receive what they give out, in terms of my relationship with them.
This person prides themselves on getting things exactly how they want, without noticing that they miss out on lovely relationships with people who give them the swerve.

Works for BIL, he’s a millionaire businessman.

Another friend is a beautiful soul, works for him. I think it just depends on the person.

Depends what you think of as success I guess. And what you mean by difficult!

I do believe in have boundaries, for waiting for a direct question rather than over offering f yourself and to saying yes or no freely depending on whether it works for you.

But I also believe that you protect yourself from bitterness by forgiving (but not forgetting) where you can, on being basically kind to those around you in ordinary ways (eg waiting for someone to cross the road or something basic like that) and concentrating on the things you love rather than on what you hate.

So a mixture I guess!

Depends on what you mean by ‘difficult’, tbh. It also depends on who they’re being difficult with. A cheeky fucker who isn’t just being appeased is going to consider the person not giving them what they want to be ‘difficult’, after all.

It’s also one of those terms that is perceived differently depending on whether it’s being used about a woman or about a man. Not that it’s commonly used about men ime - what will get a woman called ‘difficult’ will have a man described using more flattering adjectives.

Being ‘difficult’ isn’t an inherently negative trait. Like with most traits, that’s dependent largely on how it’s deployed. I’d say people that know how to read a situation and know when being ‘difficult’ is likely to be advantageous to them, are indeed more likely to be successful.

I agree, OP. Being nice or kind is all lovely, and wonderful traits to have and extoll, but never got me that far career wise or in life.

I'm not advocating being angry, aggressive or bad/stupid, but I'm seeing more that confidence, assertiveness and a growth mindset coupled with intelligence is key. Cue my eldest DD, who has all of this in spades - alongside a sparkling personality with a 'je ne sais quoi' x-factor added, and she will be on track to being a heck of a lot more productive and successful than me.

Being nice as pie is lovely but it probably wont make you a millionaire or at the top of your game!

Exactly this. My father has a lot of children that won't visit him when he is old, a situation entirely of his own making even if he doesn't see it that way.

No one can truly measure every human experience.

I think we need to separate two issues here.

If you are kind, empathetic, but you are also a person with invisible boundaries, and you are essentially a doormat, you invite all manner of nefarious and exploitative personalities into your life. I also think these personalities aren’t as kind and empathic as that they think they are. Many of them “need to be needed”. Many of them are martyrs. They have MASSIVE blind spots themselves in regards to their own “kind natures”.

Which leads me to the next kind and empathic person. One who actually has boundaries and isn’t walked all over. One who doesn’t need to be needed and simply just enjoys reciprocal relationships. It is the latter type of kind person who tends to have better relationships with their own children, friends and whatnot. That ultimately leads to a more enriching and emotionally more connected lifestyle.

Lots of people do like trump though, over 77 million people voted for him at the last election.

He is a terrible example of how being a dick doesn't get you anywhere because precisely the opposite has happened to him - he's been a dick and he's become the most powerful man in the world!

I agree and I have. With a lot of effort. But I also have compassion for others still stuck in that place of fear / expectation and offer them some insight and a helping hand.

Do you mean they get their own way by the quickest route being miserable, rude and authoritarian? but nobody likes these type of people. Trump is a prime example. Self serving and damn everyone else.

You're looking at two extremes. You can be assertive, ambitious and a leader whilst still being fair, considerate and empathetic.

I was raised in exactly that type of family. My sister and I took one look at the women around us and decided that, no matter what the cost, we weren't going to live those lives. It is possible, with a lot of effort, to unpick childhood scripts.

I understand. You are talking about a highly defended individual where self reflection doesn’t happen. I do believe they seek admiration though, not necessarily approval.

They seek relational power and supply. Sometimes it takes age to catch up with them and they start to lose out on those things.

Sometimes because they lack self reflection - they simply have NO idea why they are so chronically restless and empty inside - even though outward appearances don’t portray that. They can have it all but feel so chronically dissatisfied inside. Moments of true internal joy can be very few and far between. They have this inner restlessness about them…

I totally understand where you’re coming from though.

If you are a kind and empathic personal you will have much more emotionally nourishing relationships. Not ones built on fear, obligation and guilt. They look the same externally. Internally they feel very different.

And using polite, firm, adult words.

I think many of us were socialised in abusive and misogynistic families and cultures. It’s a survival method in trauma/ chaos (fawn) to keep the peace - which as a child was relevant. It’s hard to unlearn our programming and I thank all the women here who have helped me move out of people-pleasing. I think we should all be trying to raise each other up with encouragement.

Being difficult only converts to ‘winning’ if the person has charisma. I’ve known numerous difficult people for whom life is a string of fallings out, grievance and disciplinary procedures at work, formal complaints and so on, doggedly fighting the world and thinking everyone else is the problem. They all share the traits of being abrasive, intense and pedantic, and as a result people just didn’t warm to them. They didn’t seem like they were enjoying life, but we’re constantly frustrated at how unfair/crap/wrong/unwilling to do as told everyone else was.

The OP's post describes Trump perfectly and he is certainly a winner when it comes to wealth.

Yes, definitely helps if they have a charming public face.

My old boss used to say that he always tried to be the most difficult person in the room. He thought that meant everyone would go out of their way to upset other people before him. I think it worked in some contexts but I personally don't like being a dick.

Thank you. I will take your words onboard.

Absolutely. Mn is dominated by a particular type of wet lettuce whining about people asking them to do things/exploiting them/relying on them, but whose problems could all be solved by no longer being a wet lettuce.