To think that "difficult" people are life's winners?

That’s still quite vague. That freedom either comes from earning a lot of money, inheriting a lot of money or foregoing convention and living off grid or at least off the beaten path in some way. Or perhaps just falling into it by sheer luck.

That’s an enormous array of people. How do you class them all as ‘difficult’? Or why?

I've seen those people get up the career ladder many times. Those who give a shit and are conscientious are the mugs, including me.

What do you define as ‘winning’? I guess some are and some aren’t. If you’re talking about money, success and good fortune, then not necessarily.

My BIL is definitely the former of what you describe. He’s a horrible person. Yet very well off and successful.

My DH is also very well off and successful, but is the nicest, most down to earth man you’ll ever meet.

I don’t see it like this. I think those people lack genuine connections with people in their lives. They are seen as challenging, frustrating and people don’t really want to be with them, they do it out of duty. For me, there is nothing more important than the richness of the relationships in my life. I think those people end up very lonely.

Someone can be ‘difficult’ and have those relationships with people they care about, who they are not considered ‘difficult’ by at all.

What makes someone happy also isn’t universal, and I think people often project their own ideas as to what would make them happy, and assume that those that don’t have those things must be unhappy. What one person aspires to as the pinnacle of achievement, is going to be another person’s vision of hell.

People have different motivations. Some people’s priority is getting their own way and they aren’t very concerned about the quality of their relationships.
Other people lean more towards valuing relationships and wouldn’t be happy knowing that their family resented and disliked them. Some people value their self respect and couldn’t be happy knowing that they were dominating everyone else.
When things get out of balance and someone is willing to tolerate anything to keep other people happy it leads to unhappiness and they can be ill treated.
People getting everything their own way by dominating or manipulating might look as if it’s working and they might be satisfied with it but most people wouldn’t want to live that way.
There’s a balance of being fair to yourself and to other people, being assertive but being prepared to make sacrifices where appropriate and to compromise.

This is interesting. I think yes and no.

Yes, in the short term. People who are difficult are often appeased and get their own way. Are these people others gravitate to in later in life? No. Not really.

I tend to be the opposite. My instinct is to smooth things over. Often putting my own needs last. I don’t think this is particularly healthy either though.

This sounds very much like my manager, who has made everybody's lives hell for 40+ years (and counting). He is nothing more than a bully, doesn't listen to anyone else, and nobody trusts him. We fear that we will have to wait for him to die, as it seems more likely than him retiring at any time soon 😳

Close relationships with family members. Connected, where you can be very much yourself. There doesn’t need to be any performance. You love the person and receive love back, in a warm and reciprocal manner. Your family members want to see you, they don’t see you purely out of fear, obligation, manipulation or guilt. You have friends who enrich your life with care, activities and fun. Not “frenemies” or competitive friends. A marriage that is long lasting, enduring, emotionally safe. Honestly, the list is endless.

Not everyone “achieves” the above. Narcissistic people most certainly do not.

They may not care too much about being emotionally connected, but they don’t get off Scott free. Ultimately narcissists do crave relational supply and admiration…. If this dries up, or it’s not genuine, then they can feel the following

They may miss:

• Admiration.
• Feeling important or needed.
• Having an audience.
• Having people validate their identity.

• Boredom.
• Emptiness.
• Feeling ignored.
• Resentment that people don’t visit or call enough.
• A sense that they’ve been abandoned or unappreciated.

• Frequently complain that nobody visits.
• Tell people their children are selfish or ungrateful.
• Create crises to get attention.
• Become more demanding because independence is declining.
• Constantly reminisce about when everyone admired or relied on them.
• Become depressed or bitter as ageing removes status, beauty, career success or influence.

The key distinction is that the distress is often centred on the loss of attention, significance, control, or validation rather than the mutual emotional connection that characterises secure relationships.

They may not care too much, but I truly don’t think they end up happy and fulfilled. It is not a life I would aspire too, even in their arrogance, lack of humility and huge blind spots.

Define "success." If you mean forcing and elbowing your way to the top of a greasy pole at the expense of all professional and personal relationships, or chasing money for the entirety of your life whilst never being at home, neglecting your family and alienating people with your blunt egotism then I'd rather be an empath. And keep my harmonious, quality relationships.

I have had many dealings with the arrogant, ego-driven "I don't care what other's think" sort. I personally give them as wide a berth as possible. The focus is narrow, the goal is selfish and they will hurt you if you get too close to them. They are not civil, or considerate and neither do you feature on their radar. You are at best, a commodity, to be used and kicked into the shrubbery when your value is over and you are no longer of any use to them.

At worst, you are someone weak (they mistake kindness for weakness because they have no emotional intelligence) and they will try and bully you into submission. You will feel unheard, unseen, uncared for. And that's because you are. They have a tendency to destroy people who are close to them and end up wondering why they are alone. Often, by that point in their lives, it's too late.

Newsflash - you can be materialistically successful and also kind and not belong to the unpleasant elbow-shoving crowd. But ego-driven motivation is ugly and obvious, and it doesn't take long to show. Because people like this don't care what you think - until they need you that is. So, long-term, as a strategy, it delivers a degree of materialistic success. But certainly at the expense of something far greater and of more value.

I often observe that you can behave really badly and as long as internally you can live with it every one else puts up with it. However I think extremes at either end don’t work, and that’s whether the horrible people end of the spectrum or the people pleasing, martyring, passive aggressive end who you see on here a lot. And I know the latter can be a trauma response, as I suppose can be the former.

sometimes the people who are seen as horrible, selfish aren’t, they are just direct and say no to stuff. I do not mean the „I tell it how I see it „ bunch in that, they are just rude. Meanwhile the passive people pleasers are absolutely riddled with resentment. As someone who tends towards people pleaser which is a manipulation tactic, I think it’s good to learn from the horrible ones!

No I don’t agree.
I have known difficult people as you have described, and it really has not worked out well for them in the long run.

I have a now ex friend who is currently
shagging our friends ex ( not yet divorced)

she is a self serving dominant character who is pushy and plots and plans in a cold way to get the life style she wants

and it looks like she will get it

Yep. I’ve often thought it must be weirdly nice to be a twat with no conscience and genuinely not give a shit about others.

It's true that difficult people get their way more often because they put themselves front and centre and they get noticed/listened to and people let them have their own way because they are forced to listen and/or want a quiet life.

But there's also some truth in that in some ways they are life's lovers because they never seem happy. My MIL (RIP) was probably the most difficult person I've ever met. Her demanding and entitled nature meant she had a pretty amazing life but she never seemed happy with it. Always making complaints, falling out with people who didn't bow down to her views, controlling her husband and adult kids with tantrums that went on and on and later trying to control her adult kids and their partners with money (always with tight strings attached). I used to think bloody hell it must be exhausting being her, no wonder she's never happy!
When i met my husband and witnessed her antics I asked how she got away with it. The answer: is just easier to let her have her way, she will just go on and on otherwise.

It didn't serve her well long term. Her friends got offended and stopped seeing her (she was hurt and astonished, no idea why!) Three out of four of her kids "failed to launch" because they didn't know how to have lives of their own. I went LC with her after she deliberately tried to ruin our wedding when I wouldn't let her control the guest list, this meant she then had fairly limited access to our children. She was an alcoholic and it led her to an early grave.

So difficult people are "winners" and "losers" on different sides of the coin.

I agree with the poster who said the best way to be is generally amenable (because why not, if it doesn't hurt you to be nice, just be nice) but protect your own goals and boundaries, so it's not a bad thing to be assertive or even "difficult" when you actually need to be. There is a lot of grey area between bully and doormat!

There is a fine line between being assertive and being a dickhead.
I’ve experienced some awful managers during my working life but as time goes on you hear, oh johns wife left him or Pamela got made redundant
every dog has its day as they say

Jon Ronson iirc concluded that many CEOs had psychopathic tendencies 😁
It all comes down to whether you mean winning is akin to power and wealth.
And whether by having a teflon narcissistic layer, these people are protected from anxiety, lack of confidence or emotional needs.
But winning to others might just be that you see beauty in your surroundings, look at the glass half full, aren't remotely competitive and enjoy inner peace.

I agree with all of those traits you've described, apart from forceful. Assertive, yes, forceful, probably not. Someone who has a balanced yet assertive view on things is probaby much more amenable than one with a forceful nature.

If soneone had a difference of opinion to me, I'm more than happy to listen with an open mind, but not they forced their opinion on me with great aplomb.

Oh god no! Difficult people are definitely life’s losers.theres zero happiness in being difficult.
happy people arent difficult.

’Nice’ is the most milquetoast of descriptions, so much so that if anything it’s offensive in its inoffensiveness.

It’s what you say when you’ve been asked to describe someone and you don’t want to use ‘bland and uninteresting’.

Whether someone is assertive or rude, or whether they’re selfish or unwilling to be taken advantage of, is very often entirely in the eye of the beholder.

Whereas I’m not bothered about spending time with ‘nice’. ‘Nice’ is pretty widespread. Clever, thoughtful, forceful, strong-minded — those are more interesting to me.

There is a big difference between being assertive and confident, which is a good thing, and being a difficult, demanding, rude and selfish person.

I don't want to work, socialise or generally have to put up with the bullshit from anyone I consider to be 'difficult'.

People who have inner confidence, are clever, and know what they want are life's winners.