Andy Burnham should put the damn social care tax on landlords and big occupational pensions

There is a lot of money already in the system - it just isn't flowing to the right people and a lot of it is being funneled off shore

Precisely, @neoname, though you forgot to include the cost of the backhanders too many providers pay to get those contracts in the first place

My disabled DS used to live in just the kind of facility you describe, with housing benefit paying over twice the going rate because of loopholes around what can be charged for those with additional needs

So I bought a house and rented it to him - yes, one of those landlords which many on MN despise - and now he's costing housing benefits only a third of what they once paid, I get a small retirement income, and most importantly DS is well housed and happy

It won't suit those who believe incompetent governments should be in charge of everything though ...

I think we need a safety net, which protects people who are unable to work or have reached retirement age. It should provide a reasonable standard of living and cover needs. What is reasonable should be discussed at length and a consensus reached - maybe via a vote, as it would be a very big change. The vote should have costed figures, so people would know how much they would pay. How much they would pay for this protection, not how much rich/companies/you should pay.

The amount paid by NI contributions does not cover a lifetime’s worth of NHS and a pension. It is the current taxpayers that are picking up the bill. Standards of living have increased and so have healthcare costs.

If people want more than the prescribed needs, they will have to save up beforehand or put forward arguments why these are needs, rather than wants.

if someone is disabled they will have extra needs that an able bodied person doesn’t have. Needs should be met - wants should be individually paid for.

we need to end the segregation between how some illnesses are deemed NHS and paid for by the state (cancer) and some are deemed social care and are paid for by the individual or family (Alzheimer’s) Either illness is treated free at the point of need, or it isn’t. At the moment this split causes great hardship.

Above all, people need to stop lying to themself about quite how much all these services cost and how much tax needs to be paid by everyone in order to provide the safety net for all.

Agree!!

We need to look at inheritance tax. We all need to pay more tax to fund this but young people are already paying so much tax and housing costs that it’s affecting their ability to live normal lives that older generations (me included) took for granted. I personally would rather pay tax when I’m dead than while I’m alive.

edited for typo

Landlords already pay income tax and capital gains tax? Is two taxes not enough?

Occupational Pension Schemes - what at scheme level? Reducing the pension benefits for thousands of members, some only entitled to a small percentage? Add to our already too large pensions gap? Or tax recipients of large DB schemes? Is that not what income tax does? What about people that have transferred out?

End the triple lock and dramatically cut welfare. The hard workers are already well shafted as it it.

I agree that it’s sole destroying! People who pay very little can end up better off. It’s ever thus.
Not sure who has the answers though

It's the people in social housing who more often than not have never worked and never earned a penny, have gone through life getting everything given to them. Those who work pay through the nose in taxes to fund their life of leisure and then when they get old the benefits people continue to get everything for free and those who worked continue to pay for them. It's all wrong and those of us who work are so absolutely sick of it and so angry but there is nothing we can do, nothing changes for the better, it just keeps on getting worse and worse, it's soul destroying.

Presumably DH could afford a house before he hit 40?

Because you can't get blood out of a stone, can you? The person who has nothing has nothing to give. The person who dies with assets has sonething to contribute. And both are equally dead, so beyond a point where fairness has any meaning for them.
Someone who inherits is not losing. They are simply gaining less unearned wealth than they would if not taxed.

Of course whatever the government come up with won’t satisfy everyone. It is a difficult subject snd telling people you have to pay more will go down badly.

I agree with the waste of our money stuff, but I think we all should pay tax. Tax has become such a dirty word in the UK when in reality we pay less tax than a lot of developed counties.

Tax is absolutely fine when it's then spent on us.

As a "pensioner " I completely agree, I've put this argument forward many times.
That together with getting rid of the triple lock would raise a lot.

The poster who suggested paying for accommodation not care had a good idea, although I was surprised to learn that care in the home is more expensive than residential care.
I think the same could apply to hospital patients. I don't see why the patient shouldn't be expected to contribute to food and accommodation costs.

Not to be a total dick but why does someone who inherits have to pay and someone in social housing with no property to leave have little to pay?

There needs to be a fair system.

What I would like is the care homes to be council run, instead of most of them charing so so much money and it just going to huge investment companies overseas. As soon as these investment companies take over things the prices go so high, like at the vets for example.

I think everyone has to accept this is a ticking time bomb and has been ticking for the last 20 years. Bleating on and on about those on benefits for their whole lives won't solve anything . We are all going to have to fund elderly care costs one way or another.

Why on earth would you pass it to landlords who would then make tenants who don't own a property pay extra rent,j ust to protect those who do own their own home?

I don't fully agree. I do think European style systems are better.

Otoh when you say 'rather than it going in a socialised pot and getting the bare state minimum at the end of it.'- we need to have a good baseline of state care. Not everyone can be a high earner, good care should not depend on your income.

Well I’d prefer the immigrants to pay for it

and by immigrants I mean Amazon/Invidea/big tech companies/fucking Musk who are making fucking fortunes out of us in the UK while fucking about being billionaires on fucking yachts

@LathkillDaleno you don’t understand. Current pensioners haven’t paid enough tax into the system vs what they take out. It’s not the same for younger generations.

I agree completely in principle, except that we're already paying more tax than ever before, only to see much of it wasted on successive governments' pet demographics and projects with very little benefit to most

Focus groups, "consultations", more staff to administer each initiative, insensitive spending on vanity projects ... whatever it takes, and with almost no hope of funding reaching those who actually need it

So why would any fresh charges be different?

Don't see why they should, but the system in general needs review. More support for carers in families would be good-they get paid next to nothing, but save the state a fortune. In other countries, it's the norm for relatives to support-in hospital wards, they come to feed their loved ones, and they live with them as they get older. Moving towards this model would save money and avoid most people being put into homes (I know that social care would include nursing, but keeping relatives at home most of the time, and just having nurses come round, would be much cheaper).

It is not free in Scotland. Only for low income. Your house will be sold to pay for it.

A private rental sector is required for many reasons. Not everyone is able to buy due to poor credit ratings, job relocations, divorce...all sorts of reasons. Many people would not qualify for social housing. Landlords provide a service and its got to be worth it for them. Otherwise the sector collapses as they all sell up, and then what?

I earn just £200 a month profit in rent from the house I let out, once you take away the income tax, the mortgage cost, the agency fee and the part of the rent I save to pay for any repairs. The family have lived there seven years and I charge them below market value. If and when I sell it down the line I will pay capital gains tax. I am taxed at every stage.

If you were to tax me further, how much do you think would be reasonable? Would it please you for landlords to make no money at all? Even though they shoulder all the risk of owning a property, managing the upkeep and providing housing of an appropriate standard. It is barely worth it as it is. I am not some fat cat sat counting my jewels on a stack of gold. I have two other jobs and a family to raise.

I think I do understand. In my immediate experience, I don’t see younger people paying more tax than older people.

@LathkillDaleread about it if you don’t understand. Frozen tax bands, higher education costs, state pension age moving out, pension schemes less generous. But you need to look outside your immediate experience as it won’t tell you much.

Nobody chooses to get old, just like noone chooses to be ill so it should be state funded.

I don't want to live into old age with debilitating care needs. If the state won't let me choose to end my own life, they can pay for my care.

Let's not forget plenty of industries like the tobacco industry are profiting while taxes pay for the shortfall (google reckons the tax covers the direct health costs of smoking but not the wider social costs)

^ so starting there seems better for the public purse and human health.

But I pay my tax and I have a good occupational pension because I have a degree (which I paid for) and then took further education and got another 2 qualifications which means I have a really good job . If also own my home and therefore if the time comes I am going to have to pay for my care. So why on earth should I subsidise others more?

what should happen is privately owned profit making care homes should not be allowed to exist and care home should be run via the council