To think Andy Burnham is doing a decent job so far?

The mistake May made was twofold. She attempted to fundamentally change social care when half the country and every politician was obsessed with Brexit. And she just plonked it into a manifesto with no pitch rolling.

I agree. And look where David Cameron's oratory skills got us.

It actually isn’t that easy to talk about what you’re going to do. I don’t think we have had a Prime Minister with any real oratory skill since David Cameron.

Arguably, Keir Starmer’s downfall was his inability to articulate what he was going to do and why.

Equally, Theresa May’s failed attempts at reforming social care have come up a lot on this thread - and there’s definitely an argument that her vision was not necessary wrong, but that she failed to talk about it in a way that brought people with her.

Talking about what you’re doing to do in a way that is persuasive, inspiring and wins people’s trust is one of the primary functions of any Prime Minister. And so far, Andy Burnham is doing well at it.

Well, let's hear Andy. One of his projects turned out not to be costed. The other one was cancelling a grant for climate change projects in developing countries, and making them take out loans instead:

'This phase of government is about reprioritising' - Burnham - BBC News

It's easy to criticise when someone has been in the job 5 minutes. Would you rather he didn't talk about what he's going to do and didn't have any ideas? We have had several of those already.

Yes. Everything, you’ve said.

Well, for one thing the attacks on Andy Burnham are - from what I’ve seen - all very petty, very personal and in many cases entirely hypothetical, which I think is what shows how rattled his opponents are. They’re scrambling to find an attack line that’ll stick. And so far, they’re failing.

I’ve genuinely seen his accent mocked by very posh broadcasters as if that passes for scrutiny. It’s just so pathetic and so off putting to the millions of people up and down the country who speak with a regional accent. I’ve seen it said he’s provisional/ parochial and all he did as Manchester Mayor was look after buses - that’s just clearly untrue, as well as unbelievably patronising. Then there is the screeching hysteria about tax raises he has not even announced. Not to mention the classist attacks on his education and his clothes - as if a working class person being bright and hardworking enough to get Cambridge, and then earning enough to buy nice clothes is somehow hypocritical. It’s just so desperate.

And the thing is, these hysterical attacks are just so completely at odds with public opinion. Unfortunately - because I do think he did some good things in office - Keir Starmer did not have the personal qualities a modern Prime Minister needs to bring the general public with him. Andy Burnham patently does. He is soaring in the polls, and all the evidence suggests the more people see of him, the more they like him.

He has a lot of political good will right now, I really hope he can live up to it. My personal - admittedly optimistic - opinion is that he will.

It's easy to talk about what you're going to do.

Good point. I think you're right.

Unfortunately the dislike of Starmer had spread beyond those who make it their business to malign and discredit any Labour politician simply because they hate Labour, and entered the mainstream. This was in part due to successful propaganda on the part of the anti Labour contingent, but also due to Starmers own failure to connect with the electorate, explain his direction and publicise his progress.
Those who support his replacement with Burnham anticipate Burnham won't have these weaknesses.
The anti Labour cohort anticipate it too, and know that if they are to discredit him, they will have to do a lot more heavy lifting. So they're coming at him hard and heavy from the get go with everything they can think of from misrepresenting his words, to attacking his character, to fear mongering predictions, to his wife's appearance. Its fascinating to watch.

I agree. I didn’t make a value judgement about the criticism Burnham’s attracting, just noted that it’s indicative of the threat he seems to represent to people who don’t want progressive government. A lot of Labour voters - including me - welcomed Starmer with open arms but became increasingly disillusioned as time went on. A lot of Starmer’s critics were supporters of his party.

It does show how rattled people are. I still don't think the hate is good! I would rather people managed to disagree without hating.

You said : Good point - in response to: The amount of vitriol he’s attracting is an indication of just how rattled his detractors are.

I am showing that the same argument that was used to detract from Starmer is being used.

I don't think the same people said those two different things.
And I haven't said it's good he's getting hate, just that it's fascinating. I guess that's the kind of comprehension that leads to the issues we have.

The noise are good so far, but it is going to depend on the practice. I’m sorry he is allowing the use of air bases, though. And he is going to find that he can’t please everyone, so he should state his position more clearly. Consensus is great for some things eg resolving social care, but there are situations where people (eg locally) won’t have the same interests and some of those interests are vested in prioritising personal profit.

I find this a circular argument. We were told Keir is hated. Andy steps in "to save the Labour party" as he said. Now we are told it shows how good he is because he is getting so much hate ....🤔

Good point. It's fascinating that he's getting so much hate.

I think he’s remarkably consistent so far. The amount of vitriol he’s attracting is an indication of just how rattled his detractors are.

I dont care about politicians motivation if they do whats best for the country for selfish reasons Im fine.

I've just been watching the news about Diane Abbott haviing the whip restored tonight.

Looks like anti-Semetism is back in Burnham's Labour Party.

Thank you for your .... common sense .... increasingly rare, despite the meaning 😉

Well this is a big part of Burnham's problem. He'll tell the audience in front of him exactly what they want to hear. 'Twas ever thus with him, the shapeshifting creep.

Well I liked it. Normally you have to read lots of different words to work out that what the poster is saying is bullshit. This saved time.

😂

Maybe you should make the wine drinking a little less inveterate...