to think a lot of men will not marry if they already get everything?

OK, so you are surprised that some women get pregnant before marriage, in the hope or expectation of getting married afterwards.
Given that they do this, do you agree that this is foolish of them?

The thread seems to have pivoted from "men are bastards who just want sex" to "unmarried women are silly little hussies".

Getting pregnant before marriage is not something I'd ever do. But then getting pregnant at any point isn't something I'd do either. Seems a fast track to messing up my career, my fitness, my relationship, my sleep, my sanity and most importantly my beloved spare time. Countless threads on MN bear this out.

I could say it's foolish of any woman to get pregnant. Certainly neither me nor my child-free friends seem to have any of the struggles I read about on here - I enjoy my life and I like my husband. But I wouldn't say that out loud because something that's even worse than being an unmarried mother is being judgmental of other people's lives.

My main issue with how this thread is presented is that it doesn't take into account that unmarried women may be doing scandalous things like having sex with their boyfriends because they enjoy having sex with him rather than because they're giving him some sort of precious jewel in the hope that he'll put a ring on it.

Sorry was that 'No' in response to my question 'Given that they do this, do you agree that this is foolish of them?' ?

I am not finding your posting style or your arguments easy to follow, so happy to bow out at this stage.

For the couples I know who were together ages then married in most cases the woman wasn’t waiting necessarily.

In all almost cases they were not particularly fussed to marry…and then one day mutually decided they would.

With one more he married young and his marriage failed so he did not want to jump into another marriage. But now he’s ready to do it again.

No. I guess my point all along was the there a a series of assumptions around women and marriage that bear challenge and this thread was largely reinforcing them instead.

Yes probably. But not that marriage is that great tbh so I often wonder why women want it so much.

OK, so you are surprised that some women get pregnant before marriage, in the hope or expectation of getting married afterwards.
Given that they do this, do you agree that this is foolish of them?

I have scrolled back, and found your posts on page 8 from yesterday:
marriage is still based on patriarchal norms and assumptions that ultimately underpin the consequences of divorce. That's not really an argument for marriage per se. Better for anyone entering a partnership, man or woman, to ensure solid legal protection above and beyond what might be offered by marriage.
So we agree that legal protection is needed.
Marriage is a good solution (or civil partnership if that is preferred, as it amounts to the same thing). Marriage has the advantage of being simple and widely understood legally, with a huge amount of case law, so in most cases there is no need for bespoke legal contracts. Why re-invent the wheel?
Of course if you are bringing e.g. a big lump-sum mortgage deposit, you can get additional legal protection.

I think this thread was based on a sexist premise and, as I've said, people certainly haven't held back in expressing sexist views.
If the op has been about relationships where people have mismatched views and aims, it would have been an entirely different thing.
OK I see this is the core of your objection: that the thread was sexist because it talks about women being stuck in this situation rather than men.

In the real world, it is far, far more rare for a man to be in a relationship, with children, with him being the lower earner, and him wanting marriage and the woman not wanting it.
This is not an equally distributed problem - it is a problem that far more women than men have. And it is not sexist to recognise that reality.

Surprise to be completely honest. I'm of Gen X and it's never been my experience that women of my generation have longed to get married. And if they do, they decide jointly with their partner, not perform some odd mating ritual trying to persuade a man by stealth to marry them!

TBH, I am not sure where you are coming from. I may have missed your posts: I don't have the advanced feature to filter by a user name.

What is your view on women who get pregnant before marriage, in the hope or expectation of getting married afterwards?

Yes the patriarchal system in general disadvantages and discriminates against women, but most women these days have agency and choice over whether they get pregnant. Women are not victims in this. (I'm not talking scenarios of violence, coercion or tampering with her contraception).

If a man won't marry a woman, she should move on and choose another man to have children with.
I don't believe it is sexist to say that she is foolish and risk-taking if she chooses to go ahead with him.
It is true many women are blind to the risks, especially when 'in love', and uninformed about the legal situation, but women still have agency and control in this matter.

I think this thread is actually about a lot more than that. The OP has repeatedly been asked why they chose to focus on a particular angle and hasn't been able to answer. The flood of sexist attitudes unleashed has been eye opening. You'll forgive me but your description of women as foolish and risk taking when operating within a patriarchal system that disadvantages and discriminates against them rather than being victims of that system illuminates that.

Men attending the birth is a superficial change, IMHO.

Of course it is not normal for men to leave every bit of childcare and housework to the woman. That doesn't mean that most men are generally doing their fair share though.
No, women are not normally passively waiting for a proposal (though some still do, or drop massive hints instead of actually raising a proper discussion).
But this thread is not about women waiting passively, it is about couples where the man has no incentive to marry even if the woman asks him or raises the discussion repeatedly.

I don't believe that the man not wanting to marry is any reflection on the woman's worth or what she has 'given away'. That is a very patriarchal way of looking at it.
It is however a sign of her foolishness and risk-taking if she is the lower earner and got pregnant before getting married.

I'm not sure changes have been so superficial. It would be unacceptable now for the average man not to attend his child's birth, or to leave every bit of childcare and housework to his female partner. I think that the reason why you see threads on here complaining that male partners do that, demonstrates that it's not the expected norm and women are seeking advice and reassurance if it turns out to be their experience. Same with marriage - it's not common any more for women to long passively for a proposal, or for the lack of the proposal to provide evidence that's she's "giving away" something and her value is less as a result. I absolutely don't deny that patriarchy is as powerful as ever but I think it's becoming expressed in different ways because, as you say, legislation does, to some extent, protect the rights of women (even if, as with maternity pay and leave policy, it still enforces gender norms,).

Superficially things have changed, yes. And attitudes to single parenthood have changed (only as long as the mother is not on benefits though).

But when it comes to deep-seated attitudes that we unconsciously inherit from our parents, attitudes about how relationships work, that takes much longer.

Just look at the statistics for how many men take shared parental leave, and how much more housework women are still doing, even when both work full time.
I think governments are ahead of the people on this.

But a man walking out on his kids isn't a news story at all (and if it were, we'd have no airtime or column inches for any others). It is rare for women to harm their kids or even just leave them. Men walk away from their kids and don't seem too fussed whether they see them much (or at all) in their millions, all the time.

I don't think they take many, many generations to change at all. My grandfather's generation was one which kept me entirely separate from childbirth and child rearing. My father's generation was one where men attended births (largely as observers) and played a greater (though not huge) role in their children's upbringing. My generation was one where men were meant to take an active role in supporting their partners while they gave birth and participate more as fathers and partners. The newest generation of parents benefit from shared parental leave (still a flawed system). That's a huge change in just a handful of generations. I'd also say that in my parents generation, bring unmarried and having children was rare and still seen as shocking. My generation? Nobody batted an eyelid. This thread is out of step with modern reality, assuming that women are still longing to get married and still silently hoping for men to ask them.

Sadly, this isn't true. The myth that it's rare for a woman to prioritise sex above her children is dying out in the age of twenty-four-hour news coverage. There are endless reports of mothers allowing their boyfriends to abuse and kill their children - in fact, sometimes the mothers even join in with the abuse to impress the boyfriend. Just yesterday, Isabelle's Welsh's mother and her boyfriend were found guilty of abusing and murdering her. It's only been two months since those young French boys were found abandoned by their mother and her partner on a roadside in Portugal. There are so many news stories like this. It's not rare at all.

Of course cultural norms are not set in stone.
But they do take many, many generations to change.
Meanwhile, we make the best of the situation we find ourselves in.

I misunderstood you, apologies.
If you want a man to marry you and he won't, then I agree nothing you can do will change that. Better to find another man who does want to marry.

As for why any man would want to marry, when he could probably find a woman willing to live with him and have his babies without marriage, I can only assume men get some kind of status out of marriage that they don't otherwise find in a non-married partnership (as well as being in love with her, etc.)
Perhaps it is a biological drive in some men to be monogamous (at least for a while), to protect the mother of his babies. Other men have a different biological drive, to sow lots of 'seed' and move on to the next woman.

We are far more driven by biology than we care to admit.

For us, it was about being each other's next of kin (and a few other legal bits and bobs). No one strung anyone along and there was no proposal, there was an adult conversation in which we both talked about the reasons for changing our minds. The anti-marriage one was mostly me - I saw it as a tool of patriarchal convention and I wanted no part of it. DH wasn't bothered either way. I still don't see it as a significant reflection of love or commitment.

I changed my mind because in one's 40s one tends to be confronted by mortality rather more than in one's 30s. And we both have difficult families who could well make any sudden death even harder for the survivor. I was aware that there are legal routes to protecting each other without marriage but ultimately I decided I preferred a party to legal admin and appointments.

I have known couples marry after 30 or 40 years together. Inevitably it is for legal and tax and inheritance and medical reasons by that stage.

Honesty. An area the majority of men fail in.

Men will often feed women morsels and breadcrumbs formed of her emotional hope of marriage.

I cannot stress enough the importance of women adhering to their timelines and setting boundaries.

Is there any need to be personal?

You're entitled to your interpretation of the thread of course.

No. It’s about men lying to women about the status of their relationship.

If a man doesn’t like the idea of marriage in general or to that particular woman he should be honest enough to say so. And give an honest answer as to why.

But all to often he’ll lie and say ‘Of course babe, we’ll get married! But let’s wait a bit first.’ Or ‘I’ve bought a ring, let’s get engaged. We can fix a date later, maybe next year we’ll look at when.’ Sometimes he’ll gaslight her with ‘Marriage isn’t important, it’s just a piece of paper. You don’t need me to sign anything to prove how much I love you!’

And he has no intention of marrying her.

Maybe it isn’t important to you, but most women don’t appreciate being lied to.

My hill to die on was no DC without marriage
DH was of same mind - still ended in divorce

Yep. But that's not what this thread is about. It's about women pining through the best years of their lives longing to be proposed to.