to think a lot of men will not marry if they already get everything?

Men will only propose to women they think are worth marrying.

If the man refuses to marry a woman who wants to marry him and with whom he has children, then he probably thinks she isn’t good enough to be his spouse.

Harsh, yes.

But true.

This

It also makes the divorce easier. I have recently been horrified to learn that friends who I thought were married are not. The man is … difficult and verging on abusive. They have 3 children at university and the woman is miserable. They are stuck in mutual loathing. She gave up her career 25 years ago and has absolutely nothing to show for it.

Is that you mum???

Of course! It happens all the time!

Yes. I work with a couple of guys who have happily had children with women who, if you ask them if they plan to marry her, they will admit they still arent sure shes 'the one'. A lot of men view marriage, and the subsequent sharing of finances, as more of a commitment than having a child with someone, though most probably wont admit it. Its why many women will advise other women NOT to have children before marriage!

My own experience and that if feiends and relations has been, men who truly love a woman are not loathe at all to pop the question, in fact can often be quite quick off the mark to do so once in a secure financial position.

There are more women who earn less than men. They have to sacrifice wages and pensions on maternity leave, etc. Isn’t blindingly obvious why more women want to get married?

There are numerous posts on here where the women out earns the man, own their own house etc., and the overwhelming response is telling them not to get married.

I don’t think it’s a man/women thing, it’s more of a ‘who is the most vulnerable and wants the protection of marriage if things go tits up’.

I voted YABU because I find your assumption frankly annoying.

And the assumption is that women still want to get married.
In my experience, That’s less and less the case. Women are independent financially. They can have sex when they want to outside of marriage. Why shackling themselves with a man they’ll have to look after?
(thats from those young women, not me!)

As fur being together, having children agd not being married?
Yep many cases like this on MN. From 30~35yo (or older)
Again my experience is that younger women have wised up a lot. They often earn more than their partners too. (You seem to have that trend on MN too btw) so marriage isn’t as much of a protection fur them than it once was.

You're absolutely correct OP and this has been proven time after time after time on Mumsnet.

So many threads over the years where women in that position have been 'waiting for a proposal' for years, and the bloke's just making constant excuses.

Even worse when the woman claims 'marriage is important to me'.

Errrr well if that's the case, you should've done it before giving him everything you have.

Men will fuck a mcchicken. A man being willing to have sex doesn't mean they love you.

But obviously I'm talking generically here. I'm sure many unmarried couples are in love. But I'd imagine they are both happy to be legally single in those cases rather than one pining.

marriage can makes sense from a tax perspective

💯 this

You see these women on here all the time. They’ve got kids and a house but no marriage. They post that they’re longing for the romantic proposal that’s highly unlikely to materialise.

Get married or don’t - it only matters if it matters. But I think people should make a life with someone with the same values. But if one person wants to be married and the other doesn’t, that’s a fundamental difference in what they want their future to look like. Love may still be there, but one of them is always going to feel disappointed or second rate. I see this in a couple of my female friends who feel they were never quite good enough.

Agree with this. I know many committed couples that aren’t married and largely it’s because they can’t be bothered and don’t see it as very important in this day and age.

It's generally the person who's better off financially who is less inclined to marry, whether that's a man or a woman. Why would a woman want to marry if she's already getting everything you say marriage offers, yet only stands to lose financially in the event of a divorce? Why is this always framed as something that only applies to men?

Times have changed. Most people work, both parents are expected to contribute to childcare, and child maintenance applies whether you're married or not. Men aren't some rare prize women need to catch anymore.

The person who wants to get married here has agency too. I can't count how many threads I've read where women miserably talk about having passively waited around for years for a ring as though they've got absolutely no say in the matter, bemoaning that they've given up 'the whole show' as though a mortgage or kids or an entire life together is just a bargaining chip they forgot to cash in.

If you're with someone and marriage is important to you, stand the fuck up and have some agency. Refuse to have children or whatever else it is you think they want instead of marriage until they make it official. If they won't or they put you off, instead of dithering about it, assume he's a liar and make your choice accordingly. A man who actually wants to be married to you will be married to you but you are allowed to make decisions about who you're with, too.