to think a lot of men will not marry if they already get everything?

Yes I think so.

OP: it is not an assumption - many women have been posting as long as I have been on mumsnet that they want to marry but their partner refuses. I know women myself in this position too.

In other words, "you see it all the time". This, though, is pure perception bias.

You see women posting about their relationship woes on here much more than men, because it's primarily a women's site and most of the posters are female. (I'd bet most of your friends who are close enough to discuss these issues with you are female, too.)

Also, you're much more likely to hear from the women who want to get married and feel blocked, than the women who are happily cohabiting - because the former have a problem, and the latter don't.

It's easy to think something is a huge problem when you keep running into people complaining about it. The thing is, you don't hear from all the people who are perfectly happy.

I can’t bear the whole premise of “why buy the ticket if you get the show for free”. It is based on the idea that all women want marriage, whereas for men it’s something they put up with.
Men aren’t buying women when they marry. Women aren’t manipulating men by withholding certain things to get what they want. If those things are happening, it’s a bad relationship.

But I’d agree with your point that if someone wants to get married and the other person say yes but keeps putting it off, they are unlikely to change.

I don’t think it’s worth the risk for a lot of women anymore tbh.

1 Lots of men treat their partners and children abominably so no , procreation does not mean love.
2 Not if they have to be persuaded ( bribed) to marry them. If one person has to withhold parts of a relationship ( eg sex) in order to convince the other to marry , it’s probably not a good relationship or real love for either person.

I think of the people I know who delayed marriage and mainly they were just young when they got together and wanted to save for homes etc. the men who took ages despite having money etc were basically waiting for someone better and then just gave up. I do think when a man loves you he will just propose. I do also think more women should if they want to.

I think the problem for a lot of women who are higher earners is that often men often still don’t carry their fair share with home and children. Men gain from marriage in numerous ways that women often don’t so I do think it’s different for women. Usually if a man is the higher earner with kids and the marriage breaks down the mother becomes the primary carer, if a woman is a higher earner and the marriage breaks down often she is still the primary carer. The risks never seem entirely equal for women, especially when children come into the picture.

I also think if marriage is important to you just get it done before you agree to kids. Seen it too many times on here, someone claiming to be traditional and wanting to be married but already has three kids, name isn’t on anything and so on.

Firstly, a woman who doesn't work, has kids and no money isn't really a suitable marriage candidate for someone with assets. I mean, why WOULD you marry her?

Secondly, people think men having children means they are in a committed relationship are wrong. Men like sex, they'll have sex with pretty much anyone who consents, hell, they'll even fuck us when we're unconscious or dead. Getting a woman pregnant is the price they're willing to pay for the sex.

I’m a woman and feel like that

Maybe some men are like that but most men would not consider sex and children "everything"

A lot of men want what a lot of women want, marriage, a family, a wider family network, all the milestones of a life shared, like anniversaries.

A lot of men and women want all that without marriage and are on the same page. I only got married three years ago after thirty years together.

Your scenario of many men enjoying all the benefits of marriage without the paperwork and their women yearning for marriage is not as common as you make out. Imo.

You seem to ignore the fact that some women want to avoid marriage. The choice to walk away works both ways.

I watched my dm raise 6 dcs and be treated as a domestic skivy for 40 years so I was naturally wary despite being with ex for years. I have a degree and a career, and had a child only when I was ready.

My ex wanted to marry but immediately after ds was born he started treating me with contempt and became controlling. It was much easier and faster for me to leave.

I see a relationship as two adults willingly entering an intimate relationship. Two adults can choose to marry. Or not. They are equal.

But do women want marriage more than men? I'm not sure that is true any more.

What are you saying on the ground here though?

No sex before marriage?

Give it away? Its not something to withhold or to 'give'. Sex is for you isnt it?

Its a wierd thing I see on here a lot, the implication that sex is for the man.

But your OP clearly talks about women who want to marry and men who don't. If it was about one person's wants over another, why have you made it gender based?

Who says they are stringing a person along as well? If someone has been clear they don't want to marry, and the other person keeps saying they do, both are being clear. No one's opinion or wants has more weight than the other. The person who isn't getting what they want can leave as their partner has been clear they won't marry.

If however a person is saying one day we will marry and that day never arrives... Then fair enough, that is stringing them along.

The title of the post is “to think a lot of men will not marry if they already get everything?”

In other replies you said “It is sad but he gets everything without marrying her. Sex, children”

I think a woman is more than a baby creating sex doll. I don’t think a relationship is about what the other person “gets”.

I don’t think these men would’ve suddenly wanted to marry these women if they weren’t getting “sex and children”. I don’t think withholding sex and children will get them a ring because I don’t think sex and children are incentives to marriage. The only incentive to marriage is legal protections after a spouse’s death. Not getting sex and kids until marriage will not make a man more eager to marry a woman unless they’re 14 years old or religious.

But how clear is the person that wants to marry about how much it matters if they to have gone along with a house, a shared life, shared children, before getting that commitment? You prioritise what is important to you, that’s just life, if you’ve done all of those other things first you could just as easily argue that actually marriage clearly wasn’t that important to either of them because they’ve both just gone ahead with doing other things.

This can apply to anyone, men or women.

I do take your point OP and I don’t totally disagree but I would add that for me this is an actions speak louder than words thing. If a person, man or woman, is serious about marriage being important to them then really the time to state that clearly and stand by it is before you do anything else because if marriage really is important to you then you wouldn’t choose to buy a house, have children with someone who hasn’t entered into that commitment with you.

I would also say there are some people for whom maybe life just gets in the way. I can see where if we hadn’t gotten married before we had our children we would never have found the time now to sort that out, it was important to us so we did that first, if my husband hadn’t been on the same page about marriage then he wouldn’t have been the one for me and that’s okay, but I don’t think any healthy marriage starts with one person just doing the other a favour by marrying really.

I think this is a really outdated and sexist view. It could be men or women equally who don't want to marry I think.

I know lots of situations where the men want to marry and the women don't. These days, women are far more likely to have successful careers and own property in their own right. It makes perfect sense not to marry in this situation. Why gamble your house and savings for love? Older men in particular seem to want a wife... Older women tend to be quite content living separately, staying dating long term and protecting their assets, especially if they have children.

It's perfectly possible to be in a loving relationship without marriage as well. You can also be commited to someone without marriage. Marriage is pretty meaningless anyway nowadays. It's not a lifelong commitment is it when so many divorce.

I married my wife because I loved her. I wanted her to know she was the most important person to me. I was happy to share everything I had with her. For better, for worse and all that.

As it turns out, the sickness bit of the vows resulted in death parting us, and I only hope she knew the way I felt about her.

Yep, "why buy the cow when you get the milk for free" is a very old expression.

Women were sold a pup with "sexual liberation", basically. Give it away (sex, plus cohabitation and wifework and domestic comforts and all the rest), AND work FT and pay half the bills, and you end up working the double shift and also very vulnerable financially.

Cue lots of women shrieking that they love sex too. Yeah, but not as much as men do. (You love children more; you'll put up with pretty much anything to have them and keep them). When men couldn't get it without marrying, they married. And lots more women shrieking that they make money too. Yes, but usually less of it, once the childrearing years are factored in. Any woman who had kids (or buys property with a man, or gets otherwise financially entangled with him) without marriage is a fool, who's thinking more about being a Cool Girl - or just her desperation for kids - than she is about what's actually good for her (and the kids).

Yes, lots of men have kids with women they don't love. Lots of men who don't really want them are bounced into it by women who do. Women want them more, and feel more of a commitment to them once they're born. Men can walk away and be happy; women can't.

Find a man who's worth marrying first, and act like you're married only when you are.