to think a lot of men will not marry if they already get everything?

My now DH of 30 years also proposed after a short time (three months), he said he knew he loved me, knew I was ‘the one’ and when a man knows he knows.

The issue is not choosing not to marry. The issue is expecting someone to live as a spouse indefinitely while refusing to become one even though you know marriage matters deeply to them.

@Pinkshocks

Then the answer is for them to walk away. Regardless of the sex of the partner. Whether the man is too comfortable etc…
If marriage is a deal breaker, don’t accept no marriage. Same with many other things in a marriage.

The way you put it, men will only marry if they are forced to do so. Who would want a marriage ‘because he had no choice’?

DH wanted to get married pretty quickly after we met, when I asked him about it he basically said he knew I was the one and there was no point waiting around. I absolutely would never had kids or shared a mortgage with someone I wasn’t married to. We did live together before we got married (which I recommend, you don’t have to buy together) I moved into his place, my place was rented out. I don’t think you have to withhold sex and often it is women who want kids (in our case it was DH so ofcourse women aren’t always the primary drivers behind having children) so I don’t think men actually have to do much. They just sort of sit there and allow a woman to carry on. I have no idea, but I can’t imagine the majority of men in these specific types of relationships badgered a woman for kids before marriage.

I think having kids it what screws a lot of women, I think once you have kids its a lot harder to leave a less than ideal relationship so many try to make it work way past the point they should have quit. If he loves you getting married isn’t a big deal to him, he has no intention of going anywhere so he may as well just sign up for life (hopefully). Having a baby with someone is absolutely not proof of love, it’s just proof you had sex.

It’s just obvious that if you want marriage then try to do it the right way round. If you don’t then none of this applies to you.

It's only in the last thirty-odd years (out of all recorded human history) that living together had become the norm (in the west; not everywhere). It doesn't really seem like marriages are getting happier. The divorce rate just keeps rising.

But, sure, live together. But don't let it drag on for years, don't buy a house, don't become financially dependent, don't give him all the advantages that men get and women don't from marriage. And above all, don't have children. There's so many people just sort of drifting into lifelong relationships without ever really making a decision to commit. They get entangled and then it's just too hard to leave. And then there's so many women trying to build their lives around a man who just sort of fell into being with them. Because men just want to be with a woman - she doesn't have to be forever. They just want a social secretary and the housework done and sex and all the emotional stuff that they just get from one woman because they don't have real friends. They're so pathetically unable to manage without a woman. Doesn't mean they're in love.

We did it all before marriage. We were not too fussed to marry but it became a practical thing, as one became a high earner and planing inheritance if one dies. We were all in together and now it’s official on paper.

leaving one person financially vulnerable in a committed relationship shows no respect.

Ruddy Nora, what a load of sexist clap trap.

If she wanted marriage, and made that clear, but life happened and time marched on, and no time for a wedding was found, then yes he doesn't respect her. You can't love someone without respecting them. (Includes a reversal on sexes.)

But actually, there's no need for them to wait at all. They can propose and, if the answer is "no" then they can move on.

So how do women have sex then?

Lets take this from the start. You start seeing someone, want to see more of them, are dating exclusively, are partners/boyfriend girlfriend

Then what. A few months in you say, its marriage please?

How on earth would you know you want to marry this person?

You havent slept with them, lived with them, understood their long term functioning, financial acumen, daily habits

This is a very weird take on it. Its probably quite a religious view.

Incentives, what on earth, you mean like a bonus for hitting a sales target?
So basically seeing relationships like training a dog, where man gets treats (sex, a baby, someone to wash his socks) in return for a proposal.
I'll pass thanks.

I had a very happy life before I met my DH
I wouldn’t have given up my flat etc unless I was getting marriage followed by DC

I have no skin in the game here, happily married and was both of our decisions equally, but I’d argue and having seen quite a few of our friends make the same mistake that buying a house with someone to see what they are like to live with is a very expensive lesson.

You put down your deposits, even if you say it’s 50/50 joint tenants or specific proportion splits etc to protect your own deposits, you pay all the fees and 6 months in your realise it doesn’t work actually, but you’re facing huge ERC on the mortgage to get out early, you potentially face selling at a lower price with wary buyers of a house being bought and sold so quickly, you’re paying all of your fees again… expensive lottery.

I know relationships where the man is desperate to get married and for several reasons...not love...the woman doesn't. This post seems old fashioned and a little sexist

I think @SummerDive and I are saying broadly similar things. It’s not a man/woman thing, it’s people who feel they need more security than just love who tend to push for marriage. As women are now beginning to earn more and be more independent than they were in the past, it’s not so important to them.

What makes you think these men who refuse to get married would have done so if they weren’t having sex or didn’t have children with these women? Apart from delusion.

Then surely, OP, the answer is to teach young women to be more astute. To treat all his promises with a good humoured pinch of salt until he delivers on them.

Marriage is a legal contract and should be treated like any other contract - wait until the ink has dried on the signatures.

The very first paragraph of your first post gendered it by referring to "he" getting everything he wanted outside of marriage. By the end of the post, you'd changed it to "they". So is this a post about men and women differing in their goals? Or about people generally, regardless of sex?

No sex plus everything else that men get from a relationship - living together, financial commitment, emotional support, co-owning property, children, all the wifework that means married men live longer and so do single women.

Men care more about sex; they're more strongly motivated by it. Once a woman has children, that's her strongest motivator. Men will walk away from their families and hardly see their kids for another woman - for more or better sex. Women, hardly ever. Women get trapped because they will put their children before anything, and a high proportion of men will put themselves and their wants (chief among which is sex) before anything.

But you have to live with someone to know what they're like, I wouldnt marry anyone or commit to someone without knowing what they're like to live with. Why wouldnt I buy a property, I dont want to rent?

This is a theoretical question by the way because marriage isnt important to me, I dont want it and I own my own property.

I know plenty of women who don't want to get married. Plenty of men get married and then fuck around. I really don't think you can generalise!

Just cos some women don’t want marriage…what difference does that make to women who do?

Lots of women value the security of marriage, particularly with children. That’s hugely important, particularly as mothers generally invest financially in the marriage & children by losing out on wages.

This is sort of my point though, if marriage is the thing that is genuinely important, you don’t compromise on that. You don’t pass go, don’t collect £200, no kids, no house, you lay your cards out- marriage is important to me, that’s my hill to die on, and if the other person doesn’t want that commitment then that’s fine and they aren’t for you, but a “one day” promise isn’t enough to compromise or wait for this thing you say is so important to you. You put the things important to you first. If marriage is it then you don’t just agree to kids etc first.

And being totally honest, if marriage is important to you, what excuse would make it worthwhile to wait while also agreeing to houses and kids? You can’t accept a financial excuse because houses & kids are more expensive than getting married, and you can’t accept a commitment excuse because having kids with someone is a life long tie. So again, why wait? Why go along with other things before you have THE thing, the commitment that was so important to you?