to think a lot of men will not marry if they already get everything?

Yes! I express no view on marriage. Despite the knowledge that it's an institution that's based in and replicates patriarchy, I'm married myself 🤣. A pragmatic and situation specific decision on my part. I just reject the sexist stereotypes that I listed above. I think this thread was based on a sexist premise and, as I've said, people certainly haven't held back in expressing sexist views.

If the op has been about relationships where people have mismatched views and aims, it would have been an entirely different thing.

Honestly I think unless you are the full time working breadwinner and own the house, it’s not worth gambling on your future security and that of your children not to get married.
a close friend found this out when left high and dry by her philandering partner. He left her and the four kids with nothing, not even their family home. He was earning over £100k, he’d persuaded her to give up her career.
being married at least gives you some protection legally.

Yes thank you.

Its still a legal contract. Its either will you marry me ...or will you sign this contract that says you wont screw me over if we split up.

You seem very angry and invested in this topic.

Are you OK ?

Why? Will they help you understand that a small and unrepresentative sample does not prove the "truth" of an outdated misogynistic trope?

Yes, marriage is still based on patriarchal norms and assumptions that ultimately underpin the consequences of divorce. That's not really an argument for marriage per se. Better for anyone entering a partnership, man or woman, to ensure solid legal protection above and beyond what might be offered by marriage.

Looks like I'd better go to Specsavers then 🙄

Anecdotal "evidence" .

Do you not understand that when I say you're perpetuating a stereotype, that's different to saying you claim all women are XYZ? Anecdotes don't prove anything.

I have a dear friend who got married four years ago after two kids and being together 21 years.

They had a small registry ceremony in the UK followed by a large informal celebration abroad. This had a vows ceremony, speeches & a wedding breakfast. Their two daughters were bridesmaids.

The eldest (17) gave a speech saying she thought she was going to get married before her parents did. The bride gave a speech saying she’d waited 20 years for this day and thought it was never going to happen. The groom gave a speech saying he had thought about it for years but it had never seemed the right moment.

It was absolutely heartbreaking.

Here was a beautiful woman, both inside & out, who successfully ran her own business, raised two wonderful girls and yet had been kept dangling with the promise of a wedding that she really wanted but that she doubted very much would ever happen.

A year or so before the engagement she’d been thinking of leaving. Her partner’s business was facing difficulties, the liquidators were pursuing him for £manyK as they dissolved his company, he was talking about selling the house and moving to the countryside, even put it on the market for a while, because it was cheaper (she’s a committed city girl) and she felt unappreciated and unloved. She only held on because her youngest was 15 and she didn’t want to interrupt her schooling.

She told me she broke down, the last few years she’d started drinking too much and got a wake-up call looking at our photos of a girls weekend away. She hit the gym and started to make plans to leave. She felt better than ever and (her words) ‘knew she was worth more’. She worked her socks off building up her business in anticipation of going it alone, so successful she ended up taking on more staff. Then came the proposal.

We celebrated with her abroad. All singing, laughing, dancing, sightseeing and partying. Family & friends saying how lovely it is to see them finally married, never thought he would commit etc etc. Ha ha, how funny. Lovely joke.

But my heart breaks for her. She’s got the ring, the change of surname, the title of ‘wife’. Those speeches at the wedding did it for me. Her friends knew she wanted to marry, her daughters knew she wanted to marry, he knew she wanted to marry, his family knew she wanted to marry, but he kept her waiting 20 years.

He didn’t want to marry her until it looked like she was gaining self-confidence and getting ready to leave. She says it was because she was the problem - hitting the gym, taking up running & losing weight gave her confidence & she learnt to laugh again. But she was all those things for the first 15 years of their relationship & he still didn’t want to marry her.

Every year on her wedding anniversary she posts the same thing: a photo or video from the wedding and the caption ‘best day of my life’. Her social media profile is still of the two of them walking back down the aisle.

His isn’t.

Yes, there are women who don’t want to marry, some divorced, some happily unwed forever. This isn’t about them.

The OP specifically mentioned women who want to marry but whose partners don’t although they say they do. The women wait and wait but the wedding never happens.

My friend used to say ‘Oh, we don’t need to get married, it’s just a piece of paper’, but after a glass or two of wine she’d admit she did want to marry, very much, but it was her partner who was reluctant. Not now, not this week, not this month. But yes, sometime he would, but not now, the time wasn’t right. So she waited. Because at some point he’d realise he loved her enough to marry her, right?

Of course theyre worse off, the majority of women are still paid less, still end up for the most part doing most of the parenting when separated and, if some of the posts I read are anything to go by, the amount of money paid to mothers for their children isnt sufficient. Men have got more shrewd about hiding their worth and so have hidden their assets or wangle it to say theyre being paid less. If they see the writing on the wall in the relationship they will have been getting their ducks in a row too.

It doesnt negate the fact though that something is better than the absolutely nothing they would get from being evicted from their home with no claim at all to a shared portion of the house , no pension contributions and or poor job prospects if they've been sahms for the last 10 to 15 years.

It's evidenced.

https://www.pennymatters.co.uk/mind-the-divorce-gap/

I don't care if you think it's sexist or not.
I've had 35 years of empirical evidence in a very large organisation that says it's common.
I didn't say all women are sneaky and manipulative.

Hmmm, I'm not sure if I agree with that, especially if the woman is the higher earner.
I was the higher earner in my first marriage and put a lot more into it financially. The only reason my exH agreed to an equitable division was because OW was pushing him to settle so they could set up house and play 'happy families' together.

Individual anecdotes do not prove that a tenet is anything other than a misogynistic stereotype. Yours is based on the idea that women want to have children much more than men do (if men do at all) and that women are inherently duplicitous and trick unsuspecting men using their biology. What in this is not sexist?

Women come out of divorce financially worse off than men and it takes much longer for them to recover their position, if they ever do. It's known as the divorce gap.

I don't care if you believe it or not but it's there.

That requires the man to have equity and finances. Most people, especially right now, do not have anything to share. You just kind of walk away with what you brought in which wa 2 x nothing.

Sexist crap.

Absolutely but with a marriage there are legal protections allowing equity and finances that have been acquired throughout the marriage.. Without the marriage some women are left high and dry financially in their 40s with little prospects.

@ClarkeandNewman Women want to "trap" men because they're scared their "fertility window" will close.

That's not a stereotype, that's real. ^
I have seen it so many times. Women dating for up to 7 years with no proposal then suddenly they're pregnant.
Often, it's a single woman having an affair with a married man who needs to force his hand.
I work in a female-orientated industry and I can tell you it's very common.

If that is going to happen, it will happen within or without marriage. It's not about a wedding certificate. It's about basic respect vs old fashioned misogyny.

Over years, feelings can change. Maybe he doesnt see their relationship having the longevity that it once had so getting more entangled would be a bad move. If they had got married all those years ago, they'd still be in this same position, he'd just be thinking about whether things will improve or about the best time for divorce

Correct. Marriage was about passing ownership of a woman from her husband to her father. Until relatively recently married women had no identity in law. Look up coverture if you like.

There are so many threads on mumsnet about women as partners who have become sahms , no job outside of the relationship , no pension, their name isnt on the mortgage , and their relationship is now on the rocks . If that isnt a trad 'wife' situation ( without any legal protections of being an actual wife) i dont know what is. They have relinquished every piece of power they may have had in this relationship, while waiting for 'the man' to tell them he will marry them. Hello 1950s.

Its all very well being unmarried and having children but dont give up your job, and get somewhere together with both names on the mortgage.