to think some people on here have no idea what 16-18 year olds are actually like?

Ok, @Twile, you put forward that
some parents that give some forms of advice on MN do not have any idea and you put forward some reasons that older teenagers are beyond the influence of parents.

Do you think there are the many other causes for this? Do you think it is just down to personalities?

Obviously phones, the internet, SM, working parents and lack of extended family involvement to give just a few reasons are integral, but I do feel that we do have a parenting problem also.

Am I blaming parents? Yes some I am. And I think on threads like this, we skirt around causes and issues because we try to be seen to not bash and blame, but some of it is down to parenting.

Just see the number of threads about adults that have NC with parents. Threads that PPs describe narcissistic parents, about abuse and DV.

I think the problem starts in the home and is
not a result of the seemingly useless advice some parents give on MN, which yes can be annoying, but doesn’t address the problem of why some older teenagers are behaving in this way. And is not down to a perceived smugness or naivety of parents whose children are not like this.

And as many PPs are saying it isn’t all older teenagers. And the PPs that are saying it are not necessarily as you and some other PPs have said on here, parents of younger children. Why would a parent of a 7 year old profess to have knowledge and experience of bringing up a 16/17 year old.

Look at the figures for non school attendance, young children going into reception that are not ready for school, lack of discipline and so
much more that we see today.

MN covers a broad demographic, yes there are clusters of opinions and some advice is best suited on certain topics and not on others, but we all have a voice and as a result we are exposed to such a wide range of perspectives. Take from it what you will and discard the rest.

I have in no way presented this as a model for anyone else, merely a description of what I do. That said, there are sensible tech hygiene stuff that likely we should all follow (said the sleepless middle aged woman on her phone in bed🙄). Two diagnosed, but likely three of my children are ND and my eldest was extremely challenging as she was undiagnosed and unmedicated for ADHD and it was a hellscape for a while. She made a LOT of noise and has incredible regret now about how she treated us because it was awful. But my point is I do stand firm, I do not waver. I will admit if I have made a mistake but I work from a position of strength and from the place of being the person that loves them the most. It is interesting talking to my oldest DD now and she is able to reflect on her teenage behaviour and she too thanks me for just standing firm. Vis a vis the internet, of course it should go off and noone here gives a shit enough to walk out or do anything dramatic. I do think in the not too distant future we will be amazed that we let our children have unfettered access to the Internet. And FYi,.every one of my children has smoked or vaped at some point... My eldest does still vapes (has her own home etc) but I have sanctioned the younger ones when they've got busted... (They have all grassed one another up as it's happening so I know it hasn't been restarted because they would do the same again). We aren't perfect, I'm just not taking any shit because for the most part, I know best and act only from a place of love but I don't need them to like me. So don't be all, 'good for you' snarky, I am just explaining how I do it and not prescribing it for anyone but me because it works in my family. As for running away because a phone and Internet was stopped... I cannot do that because they don't have it anyway... I have removed a phone from an older teen here because he said something truly awful on a chat thing, I had warned him before and he did it again and I confiscated it. I'm went to his school website, printed out his timetable and he took it, he knew he was wrong and it was gone for week and he sulked but he accepted it. If he had run away I would be terrified of course, but I wouldn't give the phone back. That's a who blinks first thing and a carte blanche if you back down. Yea it is different than when they're small undoubtedly but I'll be fucked if they can punish me for punishing them...

So many examples of teenagers rebelling against strict parenting (especially when it's cultural/religious as well). The most famous porn star in the world Rocco Siffredi came from a super religious family who wanted him to become a priest. Many similar examples

Perhaps their parents didn't discipline them enough

What a pointless comment. If you don't find the topic interesting, move on. As for it not "needing" a thread, what does? There doesn't need to be a thread on any topic. And they're unlimited - it's not like OP took the last potatoes when she wasn't even hungry. If you want to start another thread, start one!

OP - I often think about this when we get those threads complaining about non-parents being on Mumsnet. If a thread is about a teenager, someone who has been one is surely equally as qualified to advise as the parent of two under-fives? Parenthood alone doesn't make them experts!

How many times do you read "pick your battles" when it's about raising a teen, to justify giving up on imposing something you believe in ?

Some of us do not "pick our battle". If some parents want to let their kids get away with a lot because they can't be bothered to be consistent, it's up to them.
Others think differently.

Just don't come back later complaining that they don't listen because they are used to get away with everything anyway.

I grew up in the 21st century! It's legal in England still (and from what I checked we're still in the 21st century). I'm not saying children should be beaten senseless. But the discipline I got (from a very young age) has led me to not to go off the rails to this extreme. I had no interest in alcohol till sixth form. It had never been introduced to me. I only started because I was surprised that everyone else was doing it and I wanted to fit in. I did experiment with it because I wanted to know what it was like to be "wasted". It was fun at time but would make me an emotional mess at uni. So no longer have any interest. Have never vaped or smoked or snuck out. Never done class A drugs even though "we all did it when young".

When I was 18 I did try and do a very "this is my life my decision, and I don't care what you think" kind of thing and yeah it didn't work out and I had to change it.

The joys of rural living - if my kids wanted to walk out they’d have nowhere to go to except a 30 minute walk to the neighbouring farm and I don’t think that option appeals to them!

In all seriousness though, it doesn’t matter if my kids are physically bigger than me, in my family none of us ever use physical strength to control anyone so it’s irrelevant.

I don’t give advice on the threads that ask for it because I have none to give, it blows my mind that behaviour can get to this stage at all and so obviously I wouldn’t know how to deal with it. I don’t know anyone with the sort of out-of-control teens you describe irl. Which makes me wonder what has happened (or not happened) to get to this point, it certainly doesn’t seem typical to me.

Obviously if a teenager really does want to walk out they will but surely it’s a pretty short sighted strategy? Most 16/17 year olds are going to be earning peanuts from their part-time jobs, they can’t afford to rent a place on their own, any friends they might be freeloading off will soon want them out. My kid’s comfortable lives are entirely dependent on me and DH and I think they are sensible enough to realise this without finding out the hard way. If I wanted to remove their phones or cars or deny them internet access (all of which I pay for) then I absolutely could do that! How would they stop me? They can have all the freedom they want when they earn a proper wage and pay their way in life.

Pretty much all of my family and friends run the same kind of benign dictatorship. It works because these expectations of respect and good behaviour have been in place since the children could first walk and talk.

They accept it because that is all they have ever known. It becomes part of who they are. The rules, which adjust as they age, help them feel secure and mean home is always a safe and predictable retreat.

There is one family who are having trouble, but the mum admits she was not consistent when they were little and cute, it was easier to give in and let thinhs go, and is sadly paying for it now.

The difference is that I’m not claiming all 16-18-year-olds are the same. I’m saying it’s unrealistic to assume you can simply “stop” an older teenager doing something, as though they’re still 10 years old

it's unrealistic to assume you can stop ALL older teenagers you mean?
What make you think other parents have no authority on their own teen?

You struggling to impose discipline doesn't mean every other parent is struggling too.

you can try to be as sweetly passive aggressive as you like, but it doesn't make my point untrue.

Yes, you are right. My only child is now going on 47 but I remember his teenage years very well indeed, I also remember my own. :-)

Great fun at times.......

Some of the advice also seems to under estimate teens and view them as much younger than they are. 16-18 year olds are very capable. Sometimes I laugh a bit at the advice remembering that I was married and running a household at 18. Yet, somehow, the 18 year old in the thread can't possibly be expected to do some simple independent activity, like take themselves from A to B.

Also, some parents on here really do say that they don’t have the right to dictate rules with older teens.

While boundaries do need to be loosened, that should go hand in hand with earned trust. A responsible young adult can be treated as such. Someone who makes poor choices needs less freedom.

I don’t agree. I was a 16 year old who was constantly grounded and trying to run away from home - completely off the rails staying out all night doing drugs etc. If a teen’s living at home and doesn’t have their own money, there’s leverage for consequences.

Your rules work because your teenagers are reasonable, cooperative and willing to accept them. That is not the same as saying those rules would work in every household with every 16-18-year-old.
You can switch off the internet but you cannot physically stop an older teenager leaving the house, buying another phone, staying elsewhere or simply refusing to comply. The fact that your children have not seriously challenged your authority does not mean every parent dealing with a difficult, vulnerable or highly oppositional older teen has simply failed to be “in charge”.

Exactly. My 16 yo once behaved very badly. We punished him by removing his phone and removing the internet access in his room. He punished us back by running away in the middle of the night.

I went into his room to wake him for school the next morning and he wasn't there. Can you imagine what that felt like? We lived rurally as well so it's not as if he could easily just wander off down the street for an hour then wander back again. He was found pretty quickly, but that's when I realised what we were up against. It's a very different ball game to parenting a young child.

I particularly enjoy the “but he’s an adult” comments when someone asks a question about their newly 18 year old. Sure, yes, legally an adult blah blah… but sometimes that hapless teenager hasn’t matured one bit the day they turn 18. They’re still at school, still living with you, still acting like a six foot toddler at times, but any mistakes they make could now have lifelong repercussions.

Mine have turned out ok after minor bumpy rides at times, but I have friends who’ve parented pretty strictly with high expectations whose kids have fallen in with the wrong crowd and pushed dangerous boundaries. If they’ve been conditioned to be a parent-pleaser, they may well go along with whatever makes them popular when it comes to alcohol, drugs, sex, driving, and taking risks.

Bigger kids, bigger problems.

Someone who posts, “my teen stays out until all hours and I don’t know what to do,” has not necessarily stated that their teen is veering towards juvenile delinquent. When every teen you know in real life would respond to a simple demand to stay home or at the very least the removal of the cell phone, why wouldn’t the first thought be that the parent did not do those things?

THATS THE POINT OF THE THREAD!

If your kids dont act like that then why give advise to parents whose kids do?

Yes I'm afraid I run what I refer to as a 'benign dictatorship ' here... Internet does go off, no phones in rooms, no TVs and gaming in rooms... It's absolutely ok to say no to them if it doesn't not fit in with what we are doing... You can have a lift if we can do it and arrange a bus otherwise... We do compromise but ultimately, there are rules. They are all nice people... I've managed to get two more to adulthood and still had rules... My sons are almost 18, almost 16 and 14 and I am in charge here.. Happy to talk anything through but ultimately what I decide is the bottom line. It really hasn't been that much of a problem because I think they and we, their parents, are reasonable people.