AIBU to think upper middle class professionals downplay how much they game education?

Our middle DS got a place to study at Oxford ( not Oxford Brookes-most people asked us this whenever we spoke about him) he went to the local state schools, with his older brother and younger sister
He came out with a 1st class in his masters, now studying at a different uni for his Phd
A few of my work colleagues at the time couldn't quite believe he managed to secure his place as all their children went through private school, one in particular couldn't hide her resentment ( one of the reasons i left) and kept quizzing me over the details, A level results etc
He was determined to study at Oxford, Chemistry is his passion and he studied soo hard for all the exams, he has a natural flair for it too, thats what happens in life sometimes, you find your passion and go for it, we are not a well off family by any means
He didnt have tutors, he had great support with his A levels ( 2nd year derailed cause of covid) but he did it
I understand what you are asking OP

Very good and comforting to hear, I would like to hope this is the case, against all hope.

Interested in what makes you an ultra high earner OP alongside being a GP. Obviously you don't have to answer this!

Dreadful!! Thankfully this is not the case with my relative, nor having met them at a birthday celebration any of their medic friends. Believe it or not there are Doctors who actally do care for the wellbeing of their patients, many who go above & beyond what is necessary.

I think you've created a really interesting discussion OP.

I'm not sure I'd call it gaming the system, but an element of not recognising the privilege people have - and the knowledge that comes from that of how to push and develop young people.

My parents were working class and didn't know how to give me good educational advice. They'd never done A levels or uni. They'd never had an office or graduate job, so didn't understand some of the politics that went with that, either.

They'd never had to ask me to study (a classic case of a bright kid doing well anywhere, or me just having some internal drive?), so didn't think to push my brother. I did well, he less so. Could I have done even better? Probably. I worked throughout my GCSE exams and my A level years.

They never thought or asked about what uni would lead to - other than I would 'definitely' get a graduate job after. So I got into debt with an English degree that I still haven't paid off. When I ended up working in a bookshop for the first year after uni (to break into publishing, which did work), they were appalled I couldn't afford to buy a house in London yet. They just hadn't dreamt you could do a degree and not walk into a 30k job.

When I got the job in publishing, I started with three other grads. One was upper class I would say, and her parents had taught her to, on day 1, ask how to get promoted and what she had to do. I thought you just had to work hard. When I finally got around to asking how to get promoted, they'd changed the system and you could only do so when there was a vacancy, not on merit. My friend with more knowledgeable parents was already far ahead of me.

Now obvs, most of the above is down to my own decisions, but the point is that my parents lacked the ability really to offer any advice on education or work. If you have people who push you in the right direction, it's that little bit easier.

It is really location dependent. Round us it was 8am - 5pm in state (with major drawback that there were fewer places than parents wanting them, plus every school varied within that and you didn't know which you'd get due to the shortage of spaces) and 7.30am to 6pm in private with guaranteed spaces for all who wanted.

Plus I'm a teacher so by the time I'd have known for sure there was a problem, I'd be beyond the resignation date for September quite likely!

This is such a good comment! Not only hellbent, but they are gate-keeping big time! When my dn was preparing for entry, there still was a requirement for 'experience', like shadowing a doctor or suchlike. Was very difficult to find a placement, actually impossible. But guess what - all the doctors' children got their placements no problem!

There are genuinely lots of reasons people choose independent education for their children. I'm not saying results mean nothing, but people have many different for choosing the school they do.

Perhaps it’s location specific but the state schools I know have wraparound care 7am-6pm with external and internal clubs. Plenty of parents work and need it.

Parental background? No, not background. Parental ambition!

I agree with this. I was very motivated by the reliable, good quality wraparound and holiday clubs provided by the private primary and they really looked after DC, even doing reading with her and supervising homework when she was older. There was nothing like that available in the state sector. The breakfast clubs at the state primaries we looked at didn't start early enough for me to get to work.

To add, we are both teachers and really value education. I spent a LOT of time working out which secondary would suit DC and went to considerable efforts to make sure she could go there. I will never know, of course, what the outcome would have been if I hadn't done that but I feel satisfied I did my best.

Of course it's all moot really, as lots of research shows parental background makes way more difference than school. Although a bad or bullying school can do a lot of damage.

We absolutely did do this though. People vary! Firstly we were worried about the lack of places in our Borough. Our LA planned badly for population growth. We did have a vague plan regarding grammar, but it became apparent that DC had SEND and couldn't go that route.

The good quality music and sport were very important to us as it was evident DC enjoyed them and struggled academically.

She's now doing well in a non selective secondary school.

When I see 'gaming the system' in terms of private school education, only two scenarios come to mind.

1. In my dc private school there were a lot of crafty parents with their begging bowls out, asking for bursaries. They were clearly able to pay. The school bursar did not do proper checks at all. For example, my dc best friend was a foreign national with multiple properties abroad, as it was found out later, but living here in a council house.
2. People who can afford to pay for private schools, send their children to the best performing state schools, by buying properties in the catchment area, or renting them, depriving genuinely needy of a place, just because they want to virtue-signal. They then brag 'we were perfectly able to send them to private schools, but decided against it'.

That would be 'gaming'.

Strange you say that - in my other posts I am posting here as a tutor for my privately educated niece who has never been the sharpest tool in the box and I wrote about it.
At the same time I am writing that there are ways when disadvantaged people game the system by pleading poverty, etc.etc.
So I wrote that surely privately educated clever people (not my niece) knew the system was rigged against them and did not even apply to that university for law and medicine, that is all. So I meant that because of that 'hard-working privately educated children' do not necessarily do better in terms of admissions, than their disadvantaged counterparts. That is all.

Nail on the head. My experience was exactly the same. Attitudes like that DO cause people to be held back and not reach their potential. I was surrounded by it at the crap comp I went to. Anyone who showed potential or worked hard was bullied and ridiculed. I came from working class parents so it's not snobbery.

My DH suffered the same as he went to a crap comp too. Likewise from a working class background. We both had a very similar upbringing, both performed poorly at secondary school due to being surrounded by disruption and bullies.

No way on Earth were we subjecting our DS to that, so we moved heaven and earth to get him into a better school (state, not private) rather than the closer comps which were poorly performing. He thrived by being surrounded by kids who had aspirations and actually wanted to do well. Still in a working class area (run down Northern region), but "parents who care and value education" sent their kids to that school rather than the closer crap comps.

I'm not in those circles but I am in circles where some people could afford private secondary education for DCs.
Towards the end of (state) primary they started vaguely mentioning the private schools saying that it would be of particular benefit to their DC to be in a school with small classes or excellent rugby or whatever but of course the state secondary schools are absolutely brilliant ("for your child") and anyway, they probably would send them to the state school, Jesse really wants to be with his friends, it's such a tough choice, etc.

Then off to private school and we never see them again.

I think I would prefer it if they said "over my dead body is my DC going to that state school, it's like the wild west" but maybe that would be a bit more awkward!

This is a very strange thread.

Huge misunderstanding of the selection process. I have been through this process with my niece, with whom I crammed for the interviews. I have also paid for her MedicMentor summer school, where they tutored them to answer all sorts of interview questions correctly, at the same time cramming for UCAT and BMAT. All this nonsense about I want to 'care for the sick'. I have frank conversations with my niece and her mates - most of them are motivated by money, prestige and the unique set up - 'you get to charge crazy prices for your services like in the harshest of the harsh capitalist systems, yet you have fuck-all responsibility even if you kill the patient, only 'lessons learnt', provided you don't utter politically incorrect statements and hurty words'. My niece did not want to go into med school to start with, totally corralled by her parents, used a 'widerning participation programme' to get in, alongside other numerous unsuitable and some frankly unsavoury candidates.
As an example: During one of their online classes about ethics, etc. they were shown pictures of dissection gently, to ease them in and one of the questions was 'how does it make you feel'. It was an online class and one of the boys answered 'horny'. For real, for everyone to see - the answers were projected onto the computer screens for all to see. Thankfully, the lecturer immediately stopped the lecture, and a sort of procedure was followed, I was told.

In my experience, doctors in particular seem hellbent on their DC also becoming doctors, and they think that private education will ensure that outcome. However, they don’t admit it out loud, they will profess that their DC is choosing that school and that career. But I call BS.

Absolutely. @Dappy777 herself is clearly one of them. I went to Oxford myself, from my sink estate, and it didn't magically strip me of my social class.

And some of those people who value education are also working class.

What a farrago of nonsense. You have acquired an ingrained snobbery about your own origins, and if you imagine the working class has a monopoly on weed-smoking, ignorance, and watching dreadful TV, you clearly haven't met many middle-class people. Ignorance is not a class issue.

I'm not going to highlight which member of my extended family is a Doctor although there is one thing I know for certain. They never studied the necessary subjects required to enter medicine. They were focused on becoming an actor & always wanted to go to drama school. It was after leaving school they approached their parents & said I've decided to go to college & study Physics & Chemistry in order to apply for medicine. To say their parents were gobsmacked would be an understatement.

The point I am making is it's wrong to suggest it's parents expectations to have a Doctor in the family that pushes children to study medicine. The happiest & best Doctors are those who go into it with their eyes open & have a genuine desire to treat the sick.

There is also the fact the selection process doesn't consider how much a parent wishes their child became a Doctor. It is so strict it's easy to uncover unsuitable candidates who were coerced into studying the sciences necessary but they would never cope with the course. They are found during interview to be not the type & why so many are rejected. In other words no matter how much parents push for it, if their child is not Doctor material they simply won't get in.

Exactly. Thank god there ARE people in this country who value education! People should fight to get their kids into good schools. We go on about the class system and how it holds people back. But the real problem isn't ‘posh people’ sending their kids to Eton. The problem is working class people with a chip on their shoulder who don’t value skills and education and knowledge.

I say that as someone who grew up on a council estate and went to crap comprehensives. Looking back, what strikes me most is the laziness and ignorance and lack of ambition. People didn’t want to get out of the ugly, boring lives they lived because that would be “getting ideas above your station” or “betraying your roots.” So they carried on reading The Sun and smoking weed and watching garbage on TV. I was surrounded by ugliness - ugly voices, ugly jokes, ugly accents, ugly clothes. The only people who did get out did so by hurting others. Either they turned to crime or they became shady businessmen, setting up as dodgy kitchen fitters or building firms so they could cheat people. I am working class to my finger tips, but I hate that lack of interest in knowledge and education. It really holds this country back.