AIBU to think upper middle class professionals downplay how much they game education?

It's the hypocrisy that I can't stand.

Much like over here then.
We have UCAs points which determines university places.

One of my cousins sent their kids to Irish school during the summer holidays. I assume this is some sort of hothousing/ extra education for the Irish language. All of her social group were doing it.
Another one drove her kids a long journey into Dublin for some sort of extra stuff on Saturdays. I'm thinking that may have been Irish too.

What is a transitional year? I don't understand that.

Overall, I always considered Irish education was better than English.

However, last year, my relatives were laughing about the introduction of mickey mouse degrees into Irish universities. So, maybe not.

And whilst I agree that the privileged often don't recognize their privilege, that isn't the crux of your argument. It isn't just the "upper middle class" who are trying to buy advantage for their DC, it's most people who care. I work with women on benefits and many of them have tutors of some sort. They are mostly overseas and I'm sure a lot cheaper than local ones, but tutors nonetheless. These women highly value education for their DC and they want to do their best for them.

YABVU for saying most parents in the UK dgaf about their child's education.

To be fair, none of that makes any difference to UCAS either, not really...

The Irish education system is one size fits all, and heavily supported by out of school grinds(tutors). Most kids stay in school til 18 and do 7 subjects for leaving cert, they have to do Irish, English and Maths. There are newish end of school exam alternatives for applied and vocational subjects.
The grinds are to do with the competitive system for university. Its all based on points which depend on your exam marks. University entry is based on the points of who applies, most popular courses have the highest points. They can have max points and go to random allocation if too many applicants get top marks. So where you go to school, if you do supercirculars, if you have gold Duke of Edinburgh or play Grade 8 trombone don't matter at all. Tutoring is playing the system, but almost everyone does it.

Looks like Ireland outperforms England significantly on PISA.

Interesting that we hear so little about their educational system here, although we seem to attract a fair few Irish teachers.

I'm not sure you can make the comparison because English independent schools often offer iGCSE so they don't produce results in the same format as the state schools as the qualifications aren't strictly comparable. A few of the big name ones have even dropped GCSE altogether and one of the big public schools nearish me does IB rather than A-level. Also none of it is contextual. An A* (or a 9) means something different if the starting point of the student was very different.

It is possible that the Irish schools offer a more similar curriculum? It also sounds like some state funding goes to the private schools - is that correct? I don't think comparisons are easy although I suppose we could have a look at PISA.

It’s roughly the same %. i think the key difference is that educational outcomes from private schools in Ireland are the same as the state school system (when you control for family background ect…)

Whether going to private school in the UK seems to offer a distinct advantage in educational outcomes.

Have no idea why. Irish private schools aren’t terribly fancy maybe - and they are a lot cheaper

Artane was part was the industrial school system and most kids were there because they were neglected or their parents were destitute. Sometimes kids were sent because of truancy or other minor things - they were distinct from borstals.

So he had probably done nothing and was just very unfortunate. They were since found to have a systemic and pervasive culture of physical abuse and a lot of incidents of sexual abuse.

Yes, I think the percentage attending fee-paying schools is roughly the same.
The fees are much cheaper though (as the government pays the teachers’ salaries) so they’re more accessible from a financial pov.

Those statistics are quite shocking - even if the children are high achieving in the early years of school, the gap just widens as they get older. It’s sad.

I also thought this point you made was very accurate:

I think a lot of professionals are trying to avoid a disruptive and disengaged peer group during teen years. If you are working full time, the last thing you want is your teen hanging around with another teen from a chaotic background doing drugs, skipping school etc. it is what it is. Absence rates for disadvantaged kids are higher, by a significant amount incl in key exam years.

Unfortunately it is during early teen years that all the trouble starts. That is why middle classes push sports music hobbies- give them something constructive to do with a positive peer group to stay out of trouble. The academics are then more of a given.

People often comment that a clever child will do well at any school, but I think a lot of parents are considering the peer group as well when they are looking for the best school for their child.

Generally, good exam results/ high percentage going on to do A Levels/ go to university tells parents that the pupils at that school work hard and value education. It also implies other things - the teaching is good, less disruptive behaviour, your child’s peer group will have aspirations to do well/ go to university, their parents value education, there’s probably no bullying for being a ‘swot’, all that kind of thing.

Of course, none of this may be true, and the school with worse exam results may actually have all those things and be a much nicer school to attend. But as a blunt measure, good exam results imply a lot of unspoken things to parents choosing schools.

It isn’t unusual - my state kids also socialise with plenty of private school kids who they have known either via hobbies, or primary, or local neighbours or family or family friends. It’s perfectly normal here in London, including shifting in and out of sectors. And once they start going to parties and uni, they all mix anyway.

private kids and state kids seem to socialise quite happily in Ireland

We are in England and DS2 (privately educated) has a lot of state educated friends. They all do the same hobby together. None of them cares where the others go to school. Maybe it’s unusual for private and state students to socialise - I don’t know - that isn’t my son’s experience.

“It's because there are hardly any private schools! There are probably 400,000 children at secondary school in Ireland. I doubt more than 25,000 of those are at private schools.”

That would be just over 6 per cent. Same as England?!

private kids and state kids seem to socialise quite happily in Ireland

It's because there are hardly any private schools! There are probably 400,000 children at secondary school in Ireland. I doubt more than 25,000 of those are at private schools. So it doesn't further class inequality as it does elsewhere. Most schools are fine, parents are fairly chilled compared to the hysteria I see on Mn, and fortunately institutions like Ballyfin are very rare.

I'm not sure who the 'people' are who are nodding their head and saying the relative who was in Artane must have been a 'bad 'un' -- anyone in Ireland is well aware of why children were committed to industrial schools, and how badly they were abused while there. He wasn't 'failed by the Irish education system', because the industrial schools were nothing to do with the education system and were only schools in name. The children were mostly at work, tailoring, doing domestic chores, emboidery, laundry etc and the 'schools' were primarily care system/orphanages, though few of the children were actually orphans. Most of the children were committed because of 'lack of proper guardianship', which could cover anything from being the child of an unmarried mother, being homeless, having parents who could not take care of him/her, being considered 'unadoptable' and having been moved over from a mother and baby home, or having committed a crime.

Some were educated privately at a convent school in Dublin. It was a day school. Others at boarding schools. A couple at Ballyfin, which they hated. Their parents paid, the conditions were dreadful. They did get a good education. One insisted on dropping out and going to the local secondary school. Two females went to convent boarding schools. They both had good careers afterwards.

Based on their experiences, the ones who went to Ballyfin did not send their own kids to boarding school. I also had an uncle who went there, who enjoyed it. The Dublin ones sent their own kids to private day school. Another one sent their kids to private day school. However, as previously noted, private kids and state kids seem to socialise quite happily in Ireland.

They are not old.
My father was educated in the local village school and went to high school, which, apparently, was unusual for his generation. All of his siblings went to High school. He came from a large family. Obviously, this was before 1957, they are all dead now. One of his brothers went to Ballyfin.

As for the person I knew who went to the Artane, I know nothing of his family background. I don't know how he ended up at the Artane. He was not a healthy person and he died young. He was, however, a character and a likeable person. I gathered that the Artane was a type of borstal. He used to refer to it often and shake his head and say "Those priests were bastards, bastards". Whenever the Artane has cropped up in conversation, people tend to nod their heads and say ahh. Some said he must have been a right bad'un to have ended up there. He wasn't though. He was failed by the Irish education system.

I went to a grammar and DH went to multiple different comprehensives. We went down the private school route for our two boys because DS1’s needs couldn’t be met at all in state. He was educated in a small private school for several years because there was no other option, until he was old enough for an appropriate special school which our LA funded.

Education til 15 was free, so maybe she passed for the free part of the Convent? I know my rural relatives paid for education in the form of trade (turf, coal, chickens!) And it wasn't free, but wasn't hugely expensive either, considered a good investment for most kids if they weren't in line to inherit the farm.

Could you pass a scholership to get a free place
My Dad and his familly moved to England when he was 11 from ireland in 1953
His older sister got a pace in the local Grammar school because she had apparently passed for the convent in ireland?
And i remember reading a maeve Binchey book where the main charachter was from a poor family but passed an exam to get into the convent school.

Or that they are old. Secondary education was free from 1967. All secondary education was private before then.

“The raw differences (no controls) suggests that grammar school pupils are 22% less likely to contact hospitals due to mental health related issues than their non-selective peers. However, once prior achievement and family background has been controlled, there is no evidence that attending at grammar school is linked to contacts with hospitals related to mental health.”

https://ffteducationdatalab.org.uk/2026/04/10-key-findings-about-the-outcomes-of-initially-high-achieving-children-from-disadvantaged-backgrounds/

The disadvantages are already baked in by age 3 typically. It is what it is. Kids from higher SES with educationally advantaged parents on average already have a genetic advantage and a massive nurture advantage.
The better schools are just another layer on top of all that inherent privilege. Perhaps that is what your professional colleagues are referring to.

What do you sell? Vitamins etc per chance? Is it related to your field of expertise? Is it anything that is performance or health enhancing?

I think a lot of professionals are trying to avoid a disruptive and disengaged peer group during teen years. If you are working full time, the last thing you want is your teen hanging around with another teen from a chaotic background doing drugs, skipping school etc. it is what it is. Absence rates for disadvantaged kids are higher, by a significant amount incl in key exam years.

Unfortunately it is during early teen years that all the trouble starts. That is why middle classes push sports music hobbies- give them something constructive to do with a positive peer group to stay out of trouble. The academics are then more of a given.

I have got to say all my DC did choose what secondary school they preferred. They are far too strong willed and independent not to. Also not sure who any of these parents are who can force their kids to do well in an 11 plus exam. The kid needs to want to do it. Mine are the types who would have deliberately failed if they didn’t want a certain school. Lots of their primary friends refused to engage with 11 plus so the parents left it. You can float the idea but it’s up to the child to work and study hard even at age 9/10.

If all your Irish relatives were privately educated, you have a very small and atypical sample size, and/or are misinterpreting the information you have, which I imagine is the case. There are only about fifty fee-paying secondaries in Ireland, the main cluster in Dublin. They probably only have 20-25 k students. And most still have state support for teachers' salaries.

Most convent schools are state, and them being convent schools implies nothing whatsoever about their intake. They're not selective. They're still default parish schools. I went to convent schools throughout my education, and my secondary in particularly was notorious for poverty, truancy and a high-dropout rate. Some convent schools, on the other hand, are glossy, high-achieving exam factories.

If by 'The Artain', you mean the Artane industrial school which closed in the late 60s, then I think you're very confused. Do you even understand what the industrial school system was, which kind of children were in it, and why someone coming out of it would be not only 'poorly educated' but likely to bear lifelong trauma?

We don’t have the grammar system in Ireland/ROI (never Southern Ireland!😉).
A few schools do have grammar in the name, but that’s it.
Having academic ability of the student as part of the selection process isn’t allowed here. Schools are mixed ability.