AIBU to think upper middle class professionals downplay how much they game education?

Well, pretending to be of the Catholic faith won’t do you any good anyway 😁
You apply for each school separately in most areas here. It can be stressful because many schools are oversubscribed at the moment. The secondary schools in our town are at least. Student numbers are falling so it may not be such an issue in a few years.

Ha. I am a doctor and am grateful every day that my kids chose different courses at uni. Non-vocational ones too. They made their own choices. I didn’t want them to have such a stressful NHS life and I am excited that they don’t know what career they will follow yet.

What kind of ‘Asian doctor, daughter of immigrants’ am I ;-)

That's very interesting so the rat race for schools (& pretending to be of faith!) is probably not as bad as the sharp elbowed & devout here!

That's interesting so anyone of any faith can attend a Catholic school in Ireland?

Yes, it’s because so many schools, especially primary schools, are Catholic ethos schools.
I think it was only in 2018 that was made law though. Before then you didn’t have to be Catholic either, but preference was given to Catholic applicants if a school was oversubscribed. I attended a convent school in the 80s that had a (small) number of students of other faiths.

Most Catholic schools are run by lay teachers now.

They can now. The rules on religion selection are now considered discriminatory, apart from allowing some wiggle room for minority religions (which is Protestant usually)

That's interesting so anyone of any faith can attend a Catholic school in Ireland? In the UK many a lefty liberals has found God when a place at a state Catholic school is at stake!

It’s done by those who can afford it and who prioritise education. The class system is different here. A lot of people wouldn’t really identify as middle-class in the same way as in the UK but would have similar values.

Yes, about 47% of second-level pupils attend a Catholic ethos school. The figure is much higher at primary level, which is up to age 12 or 13 here, getting close to 90%. Catholic schools are not allowed select pupils on the basis of their religion though, whereas minority religion schools are.

About 30% of pupils attend single sex at second level, about 13% at primary level.

A recent study showed no difference in achievement for single vs mixed sex schools.
https://www.ul.ie/research/news/university-of-limerick-research-reveals-no-academic-advantage-to-attending-single-sex#:~:text=The%20major%20new%20study%20has,in%20science%2C%20maths%20or%20reading.

However, I would say it very much depends on the local school itself. Fee-paying schools are much more likely to be single sex and that could skew the results. I also know our local two single-sex schools have higher academic rankings than the local co-ed school (all state schools, the single-sex ones are Catholic ethos too.)

Is that done by everyone or just the middle class? Is middle class pushiness even a thing in Ireland the way it is in the Uk?

Grinds (private coaching sessions) are big in Ireland. So yes you can pay to advantage your child.

Reading this thread now towards the end... this started about the middle class gaming the system. Irish kids are outperforming us significantly on the PISA exams. Do middle class Irish parents not game the system? Are much more relaxed? Or is the Irish system more transparent so you can't advantage & provide privileges for your dc the way it can be done here?

How about single sex? Would these be as high achieving as they are in the UK? I'd imagine the roi still has a number of Catholic boys & girls school?

That's true in London (to an extent - it's only the national collections that are free and they it's only the permanent collections, not the exhibitions) but it's not true in other parts of the country.

Local authorities have done a lot of merging libraries and handing them over to volunteers with limited opening hours. They do have to provide the service but it doesn't have to be accessible....

Yes OP, I agree entirely and I think other people are being disingenuous or not getting what you’re saying. It’s the insouciant pretence that they haven’t been helicoptering since birth and that they’re just going with the flow all along. My child is at a top grammar and we are very much part of this culture you discuss and you’re right. It’s all very much like the kids at school who pretend they don’t study and that it’s all just effortless intelligence while they’re beavering away making sure their child has every advantage as underneath all they’re utterly desperate for them to get a rake of top grades.

Museums are free. Art galleries are free.Libraries are free. This summer, bus fares are free.
I didn't have all this extra tuition. I had lots of social and cultural capital. I took myself swimming. I had a free pass at the swimming baths. I used to practice the recorder and the violin. I didn't have music lessons.

Parents just whinge too much nowadays. Children are not educational projects. They are small people who are capable of enjoying life without all these over anxious, competitive Parents.

I had someone whingeing at me the other week about a 'posh' school that should be closed down. The kids there are 'advantaged', and have 'rich, stuck up Parents '.

I pointed out that it is a state school and their kids are eligible to apply.

Too many parents want to play the victim. Just drag your kids off to some free activities and stop moaning.

Oh, what's that? Your kids aren't interested in books, museums, art galleries or countryside walks, or free bus travel?

It feels like social mobility is at an all time low again. However many parents who could pay for private school 5 years ago now simply can't but they will be just as ambitious & will pay for private music or language, lessons ,lots of cultural activities & travel... so while these kids may not be attending private schools they will have cultural & social capital in spades which will ensure their advantage & privilege..Even if private schools were completely abolished it will never be an equal playing field..

Of course. There are lots of ways of gaming the system. Just pointing out that paying is one available to a tiny minority.

Paying is only one aspect. Anyone can "game" the system by choosing a different school to their nearest one. That's not really "gaming", it's just choice. Some people can't do that if they can't afford the bus fares to get their kid to a school further away than their local "crap comp" - most can. That's still "gaming" in a similar way. "Gaming" is also pretending to be religious and attending church to gain points to get their kid into a better church school than the local crap comp, which lots of people do, and that's nothing to do with money either.

But the fact that you can afford to choose means you are “gaming the system”.

I agree OP. I live in 11+ area. It’s insanely competitive…. Parents don’t like to share information about tutors 🤣 for this supposedly untutorable exam. There a whole very profitable weekend business of 11+ tutoring that you dare not let your kids miss out on it’s just crazy nonsense!!! But for the fact that if your kids get to the Grammar school you know the other kids parents are equally invested and won’t let them get away with silliness at school hopefully

I totally get what you are saying. Similar in my area with parents being extremely secretive about where they are applying for secondary. It's funny as kids talk in school & spill the beans anyways about where they want to go & their parents preferences.. the secrecy is ridiculous imo..

The vast, vast majority stay in school to do the Leaving Cert but the less academic would go on to more vocational courses after that.

There is no exact equivalent to GCSEs in Ireland. The Junior Cert is done after 3 years of secondary and it doesn't have the same significance as GCSEs. It's not relevant to your college applications for example and I don't think you'd ever be asked for your results. It may impact what subjects you could do for your LC but that's about it.

Not really. The Leaving Cert Applied and Vocational Leaving Cert are offered by some schools. But there are loads of further education options which don't require high levels of points. Like NHCs in England (don't know if they still exist though).

So there is nothing for the less academic kids then?

It's worth making the distinction that the Irish system is entirely points based though.

No offers are made until the results come out and offers are made to those with the highest points, working down the list, until the places are full.

It's not like the UK system where offers are made prior to results and its possible for a student to get a place with lower grades than someone else who gets higher grades but misses out.

Transition year comes between junior and leaving cert and it's a year where you get to do much more vocational/fun activities - like work experience, school trips, setting up a mini-company, putting on plays, things like that.

Done well, it's a fantastic experience.