To not understand attitude on here to grandparents helping with childcare

And what do grandfather's do in other countries? How much childcare do they provide?

Yet again the term grandparents is used, when in actual fact the expectation is on grandmothers. Men seem to get free credit for what their wife does and no threats of not being looked after in old age if they dont provide regular child care.

i think you’re right but a) not everyone has a good reciprocal relationship with their parents and b) some people (me!) are struggling with parenting the first time around and can’t imagine having to do it a second time so are perhaps protecting their own future space that they’re hanging onto? I’m sure when it/if it comes to it there will have been so many years between now and then I will be delighted to help but right now I feel overwhelmed by the idea of having to deal with babies and toddlers again later in life. Also, this generation of partners will likely be working into their seventies so that’s a structural issue coming down the line

I remember when my sister had her firstborn she struggled a lot as her baby was colicky. She told me she was on the verge of turning up on our mum's doorstep and just hand the baby over to her and fuck off for a while (luckily she didnt).
My poor mum wasn't great at settling crying babies, judging by how my 2nd youngest was inconsolable the whole time she last had him at hers by herself.

Looking back when my kids, step kids, nieces and nephews were young my in laws were constantly looking after a child or another. It was predominantly my 2 stepsons as hey were the oldest, then my sils kids as she literally was round in laws house every single day. My bills kids got a look in but not as much according to him. They helped a lot with my oldest when I did an evening job and then when I had my daughter. The over enthusiastic help petered out when my fil got ill (understandable) then I had my 2 youngest sons who haven't really experienced the time spent with grandparents. My fil and my own mum died before my youngest was born. We just have my mil now and she tries to offer help by saying I can drop my toddler to her if I need to go shopping but I can't because she mustn't do heavy lifting and he's really heavy and he cries whenever he sees her. My husband forgets how much they helped out as he only thinks of recent years, forgetting how they used to have a grandchild sleep over every weekend

I don't agree. My mother currently has 9 grandchildren, likely to be 12 in the next 12 months. All primary school age. She cannot possibly provide support for all of them. So the most reasonable thing to do is to refuse regular support for any of them. Imagine how pissed off my sister would be if my mum helped me out twice a week but then couldn't help her because I happened to have kids first!

It depends what you mean and your expectations.

In my view loving parents who live close to their adult children and who see each other regularly ( and not just when the children want something) would volunteer gladly to help out when regular (otherwise organised) childcare falls through, for occasional ‘parents night out babysitting, in emergencies. Perhaps days or weeks in holiday periods to help out. They see their grandchildren alongside other family regularly too as a pleasure - a natural thing - not a childcare obligation.

But a belief and expectation that grandparents are morally obliged to become second hand parents to the grandchildren- to provide daily or regular childcare and to be grateful for it seems to me entirely unreasonable.

This is often an expectation of those who have failed to mature to realise that their parents are people too who also have hopes and dreams and life to live that don’t come second to you once you’re an adult. In adulthood you - you are the one who is responsible for yourself and step up - not mummy and daddy!! You’re all grown up. They’ve done their job. Own and pay for your choices. Yes they’ll always love you and help you out when chips are down but that’s not the same as thinking their lives and freedom remain secondary to yours.

Those mums with small children whom they still adore utterly and who are reliant on them for everything might find it hard to extrapolate forwards to when those darling babies - for whom they will gladly provide childcare 24/7 if necessary - grow up to be very different people to them.

It's easy to say 'I will do everything for my grandchildren' when your OWN children are small. But when those children are grown and you are finally getting your life back and can do things impromptu and eat and sleep when you want to, you may feel differently about starting all over again with children that aren't yours.

But it IS one sided, in your case, it seems?

Maybe you should go ahead and move? If you're not prepared to be MIL's carer, now is the time. Are you in the sort of set-up where it will mostly fall on you, although she's your DH's mother? Time to put your foot down.

This.

Quite apart from anything else, many people in their 50s and 60s have a lot less energy than they used to and simply don't have the stamina to deal with an energetic 2yo.

my dm offered to help
i didnt ask or or expect it, she did what she could
and now i help her

I know. I have to laugh.

and older generations weren’t even doing as much as grandmothers in some other countries who basically look after the children every day and every weekend while parents work - backlash from them is understandable but from people who looked 1-2 days a week at best … but mostly not even that

i think Britain or perhaps Western Europe has very individualistic culture, and that’s just one of the symptoms

Being a parent doesn’t automatically mean you are available to provide childcare for grandchildren.

There are numerous reasons why a grandparent can’t or doesn’t want to do this. It’s wrong to assume they should.

I find that absolutely bizarre. I mean, these people brought you up (usually). They fed you and clothed you and read you bedtime stories and toilet trained you and changed your bedclothes when you’d thrown up and helped with your homework. But you think they need to help you raise your own child in order to ‘deserve’ your help in old age?

So your title says "grandparents" but then the rest of your post shows that what you actually mean is just the female ones. That's part of the problem.

I just think it’s a really sad state of affairs when grandparents who are able to, choose not to help, or “don’t want to be grandparents” - Wtf is that about?!

”Wtf is that about?!” I’m quite incredulous that you’d even need to ask this. Have you had times in your life where you didn’t want children? You were too young, or wanted to focus on your career, or enjoy travelling or wait until you had a bigger home or more income or whatever. The point is, you choose a time in your life to have children that is right for you. We didn’t always feel that it was the right time, or being brutally honest we may have had long periods where we absolutely didn’t want children but subsequently changed our minds.

Yet older people are expected to automatically want to have grandchildren at any given point no matter whether they are at a point in their lives where they are ready or able to take on childcare responsibilities. It’s double standards. Of course many do want grandchildren but there is no more wrong with a woman who says that she doesn’t want grandchildren than there is with a woman who says that she doesn’t want children.

I'm another that doesn't understand why grandparents have to 'earn' any help they might need in later life by caring for another generation. They brought up THEIR children (ie, you), so why does giving a hand with shopping or driving them to appointments when they are in their 80s have to be contingent on them helping with children that they didn't bring into the world, that they couldn't plan for or have any say into the timing of?

I love my grandchildren but I have an unpredictable job which I will continue to do until I am physically incapable and I'm not available for regular childcare. I don't want or need 'a bond' with my grandchildren, we love each other and that's enough and I would be most put out if one of my kids told me that they wouldn't help me with something I needed them for because I didn't help them 'enough'.

At one stage my mum who had recently retired had my nephew one day a week. This was ok but stopped when my sister in law soon became pregnant with the 2nd and said to Mum. that she should have both of them when the baby was 3 months. Mum was furious and gave them 2 weeks notice to give alternative childcare on that day. She never did do childcare apart from occasional babysitting for and more grandchildren

My parents didn't want to be involved in their grandchildren's lives. I got very little actual support from them and knew not to expect any.

It was drummed into me as a teenager to never ask my mum for help with childcare and I remember those conversations clearly. That said, my mother did come and look after my older children whenever I had another baby, so it wasn't total, it just didn't extend much beyond that.

My parents showed basic interest at arm's length, such as during a weekly phone call with me. They did visit us for a couple of weekends each year and we visited them too, but other than that they just wanted to exist inside their own little bubble, which they seemed to think would go on forever. The result was that they didn't really build a proper relationship with any of their grandchildren.

Personally, I hope to strike a much better balance should I be fortunate enough to have grandchildren. I would like to be involved in their lives more and provide more of the support to my own children that I feel was largely lacking for me.

I think whether adult children help out their parents in old age is more to do with their upbringing than whether they received help with childcare tbh.

If your parents were kind and loving and did their best to provide you with a stable and happy childhood, you'll want to support them if they ever need it. That's how my DH sees it anyway - his parents haven't been particularly involved grandparents, but they were very good parents to him and still are - they just didn't particularly want to do childcare!

This post is on the back of another post where the OP admits she gets regular help from her Mum once a week for 9 hours in OP’s house. I agree that occasional babysitting because you want to and enjoy it is lovely. Expecting someone to travel to your home using their car and fuel on a regular basis, thus preventing them from ever volunteering on that day, accepting an appointment or invitation on that day or even working when times get difficult (as they are for many of us) and adhering to all your parenting rules is an entirely different proposition. In the original post OP admits that her Mum set a boundary and that she still asked her to cancel her plans! And yet the OP of this post clearly thinks that not wanting to do that for your children (and have them slag you off on here) is wrong.

To me it's all about give and take and being reasonable. I think expecting that a close family member will help you out with childcare for example if you have an appointment, an emergency, an unusual work trip, a wedding, you're ill etc - in those situations they are a bit out of the ordinary and awkward, it's OK to expect family to do you a favour.

People that expect regular childcare aren't expecting 'help' or a 'favour' though - if you're looking after someone else's child for a few days a week you're making a huge financial and practical sacrifice that will significantly affect how your retirement looks, how flexible you can be, how tired you are etc. To me, that goes beyond a bit of help and creates other problems - for example people who have kids on the basis the grandparents help out as they can't afford childcare and then the grandparents get ill and there is no backup at all.

I'm not applying this to cases where grandparents genuinely offer and really want to help out for the joy of spending time with their grandkids. That's different and everyone benefits. But it's clear on here that some grandparents are taken advantage of and end up agreeing to childcare that they really don't want to do because they feel obliged, because for example the other set of grandparents help out, or because they'll get the blame for their child not being able to work,, or because they helped out one of their children with childcare 20 years ago and now their other child expects the same and complains it's unfair, or because there are threats to stop contact with their grandchild if they don't comply

Agreed. My parents and in laws never offered any help with the children which is fair enough. I’ve cared for my mum when she ended up in a wheelchair. I’m still caring for my father who is now blind. I think it would have nice to help me out occasionally as it swings in roundabouts! These grandparents seem not to understand that they’ll need help too! I’m not offering care to the In laws though.

It's entitled to "expect" childcare from anyone.

It's fine to ask. It's fine to say no.

My mum died recently too. She was in her 60s. I hear you on that.
It’s not the childcare I’m sad about, it’s just another human who would care to be interested in my kid.