To think Gill Pharaoh had the ideal end of life

Which is why I clarified that I would like the option to make decisions about my life. I am not saying that other people would want to make the same choices, nor should they.

I thought there were three periods? This is what I’ve read and what I have observed.

There’s Theperiod when you retire and you’re fit and healthy and everything is fine because you don’t notice any difference.

Then you get the middle period where you notice you’re slowing down, you notice that things aren’t quite as sure as they were, you can’t do what you did before, but life is still ok.

Then there’s a third, final stage where you really are frail. This comes at different stages for everybody and some alllucky enough to avoid it. I vividly remember an elderly man telling me that he was now at that stage, he recognised it and he didn’t like it.

I think you are probably quoting stuff there that you have obtained from campaigns against assisted dying. If doctors don't want to do it they can't be made to do it.

I'd like to see research papers on complication rates, but I see no possible way that it will be greater than with suicide. Hanging without a neck breaking drop, the choice of many men, is a vile death and drug overdose, the choice of many women lands women in hospital on a daily basis.

Why do you think killing a 700kg mammal is easier than killing a 100kg mammal?

We euthanise our pets once their quality of life deteriorates- when they become in incontinent and immobile, in pain and distress.

I think this is a well intended but bad example.when brought up in AD threads. We euthanise animals when we wish to because they're property and don't have the right to choose their own care. I say this as a pet owner and animal lover. This kind of thinking is again leaning into the idea of when are lives are "unlivable" by other people's standards not the patients. Some disabled people are incontinent and immobile and in pain every day and have been extremely vocal that they are concerned with how much their experience is viewed and described that they would be better of deaf, when they're finding it hard enough to get the care and support they need to live because they don't want to die.

Assisted death and euthanasia for an animal aren't the same procedure and method and I think that's another thing that worries me is people don't seem to know the difference between AD and Euthanasia. Complications with AD have been reported anywhere between 7-14% which isn't much better than taking an overdose etc especially when it's being touted as a guaranteed peaceful death. Out of interest where you understand the impression AD was euthanasia with IV similar to animal euthanasia?

Managing the assisted dying process
Evidence shows the assisted dying process is uncertain, prolonged and not without suffering for the dying patient or their family. Recorded complication rates are up to 14.7% (including vomiting, seizures and a prolonged dying process) [7]. No drug regulatory authority in the world has approved assisted dying drugs and doses [7], GPs are likely to feel significant unease at prescribing unapproved and unregulated medications, something that is at odds with current clinical practice where prescribing is grounded in evidence. In a chaotic clinical day, where GPs are already working extremely long hours, dealing with multiple complex and emotionally charged situations, a home visit to deliver an assisted death will undoubtably cause additional stress. Some doctors in Australia describe involvement in assisted dying as ‘traumatic’, ‘anxiety inducing’ and ‘isolating’[8]. The potential for moral distress in GPs is not insignificant, this may occur when professionals cannot do what they believe to be the ‘right thing’, or when they are obliged to do things not aligned with their ethical and moral compass.

Untrained staff doing it. Medical ethics rules forbid doctors and nurses from participating in executions.

I have a friend who had a TBI (extraordinarily fit and healthy prior to this) in her late seventies. Her care has been shocking as she’s been utterly written off and stuck in a dementia home, she does not have dementia. The cut off for decent rehabilitation was 60/65! So the system just stuck her in a completely unsuitable home up thread I saw the phrase ‘living hell’ and yes this is a living hell for her. She’s broken and potentially has years left. She would NOT have wanted this for herself and now cannot make a decision that I know she would have wanted. It honestly makes me so angry as I watch her suffer.

Neither of my parents lived past their early 70s, so I find it quite hard to imagine me having a long life.

I work in a specialist mental health service for younger people, and even 30 years ago our caseload wouldn’t be anywhere near as big as it is. Care for people who have significant impairments has progressed so much that their lives are much longer now. Pressure mattresses and seating, thickened fluids and modified diets mean that people live much longer when they are entirely dependent on others (generally nursing home staff) to anticipate their every need. They no longer recognise their family members who can be extremely distressed at the progression of their loved one’s illness.

We euthanise our pets once their quality of life deteriorates- when they become in incontinent and immobile, in pain and distress.

I know it is a complete can of worms, but I would really like to be able to have an advance directive that means that my life can be ended if I should end up completely dependent on others, unable to communicate and with no recognition of my loved ones. If I ended up completely dependent on others but could still communicate, I would like to be given the choice.

Aren't there instances of complications arising when prisoners are killed by lethal injection in America?

And before anyone brings up again how it's less risk than unassisted suicide - it really isn't and it's another thing that makes me uncomfortable that people naively think AD guarantees a pain free death when actually the complication rate is quite high.

Can you show me your evidence for that? I've been at the assisted deaths of many horses, who by virtue of their size are more difficult to kill with drugs than humans, and my experience would not support the assertion that assisted dying has a high complication rate that results in distress to the recipient.

I'm not sure where people get this idea. Usually medics only treat reversible conditions.

I have to restrain myself not to write what I experienced volunteering in one of the best hospices in the country, so as not to upset people.

It has certainly informed my own decision about how I intend to die, and it won't be in a hospice.

I believe in assisted dying in principal but I'm extremely wary of it in practice in our current society. Even so many of these threads the posts are made up of posters describing others experiences /life's and concurring that person would be or would have been better off dead which just adds to my fear that individuals choices will be heavily influenced by their loved ones and society where it's basically going to be selfish to want financial support and good care and even better palliative care instead of "choosing" AD. I mean an annual offer to end your life after 75 jesus Christ..🤦🏻‍♀️

And before anyone brings up again how it's less risk than unassisted suicide - it really isn't and it's another thing that makes me uncomfortable that people naively think AD guarantees a pain free death when actually the complication rate is quite high.

Why does that mean you can't have quality of life?

Age 75 is often categorised as the start of late elderly or middle-old age. Chronological breakdowns typically split older adulthood into early-old (65 to 74) and late-old or late elderly (75 and above.)

75 is not 'very elderly'. 85 maybe.

At 75 and 80 my parents volunteer 2 days a week (1 in a physical role), participate in sport, look after their grandkids. One has had a physical disability since their 40ies and have a very full life.

She is perfectly entitled to feel as she felt, but classing 75 as very elderly is a bit odd.

So true. People go from life to death without wanting to consider the decline in between. But it’s the decline that’s the hardest part.

But it’s not fine for other people to decide you are a burden, or that you are no longer worth keeping alive after a certain age, regardless of your health. Anyone who believes this sort of mission creep could never happen if euthanasia is legalised is very naive.

Everyone SHOULD have the right to die. There should be no suffering requirement to access assisted dying. Autonomy should be enough. There are a lot worse things than death.

(“Death is not the greatest loss in life. The greatest loss is what dies inside us while we live.”)

Yes, the exact same arguments can be made about abortion and yet this is legal despite some medics have strong moral opposition to it.

It's easy to see how someone could want to end their life even using if they shared your perspective on it's purpose. Afterall if we all live long enough then we simply won't be in a position to support loved ones, contribute to the community of appreciate nature and cultural experiences. All of this can be taken away from you as you age and you can end up dependent on others for any quality of life. What then? There is no prospect of things getting better and many just don't want to live like this.

I also find it strange that so many posters object to the idea that people might want AD in order to not be a burden to others, especially loved ones. I am one of these people and can state now whilst I'm relatively young and fit that I don't want my husband or kid saddled with caring for me for long periods of time. I don't want it for them or me. It's one of my worst nightmares. I hate it that other people want to decide that this form of reasoning is unacceptable. Who are they to override my views and wishes?

Oh squirrel darling I have a bingo card here which I have just completed HOUSE, because based on your bad faith takes, I just knew you were going to suggest I improve my lot , by getting a better paid job 😁. Honestly, you couldn't be any more predictable, but it's my own fault for showing my vulnerability, which I hate doing on the internet, because of people like you.
Well done pet👍.

This is very well said. Sadly so many resort to horrific and desperate measures @kookieCrumbles