To think Gill Pharaoh had the ideal end of life

What are the odds of being hit by a bus versus the odds of needing care when you get older? Not comparable at all.

But being an independent human being surely makes the whole issue less morally complicated because you have capacity to end your own life. In an abortion then the mother ends a dependent life that doesn't have capacity to end it themselves.

Just for the record, I am pro choice.

Pre-empting needing care by ending your life while you’re still healthy is a bit like pre-empting being hit by a bus by never leaving the house though.

That's an interesting point

Because abortion involves a foetus and euthanasia involves an independent living human being?

@MrsShawnHatosy ”The idea of it becoming unacceptable to simply be old is horrifying to me.”

The idea of needing care and losing my mind is “unacceptable” to me. I would rather have fewer years but die while I’m still healthy. No one knows what state they might or might not end up in. Gill Pharaoh was preempting the physical and mental decline of old age.

How is this different to abortion? Why do we allow abortion and not euthanasia?

Both could be subject to external pressures and expectations. Both decisions are made in the context of societal and economic factors. Both are about body autonomy. Both are about ending life.

I just find this kind of thinking so narrow minded. We seem to accept that humans have natural variance in what they enjoy and can even tolerate regarding everything else. If I suggested a 14 day cruise or a trip to Disney, these things would be some people's dreams holidays and other people's worst nightmares. Why wouldn't this variance extend to life itself and even getting old?

Some people enjoy the essence of being alive. They can accept getting old and the challenges this brings as part of a life that they overall enjoy. They don't see life as a huge effort or something to endure. I am in this group myself and value my life enormously.

Other people simply don't want that for themselves in the same way they perhaps don't enjoy Christmas or long walks. I think it's wrong to assume that people that view life differently to you or me are automatically wrong or mentally unwell. Who is to say what is normal or right? We are all wired differently and will have a different outlook on everything including whether we think life is always worth living.

It’s not quite that simple. How long before a choice becomes an expectation or even a requirement? Don’t get me wrong I do support euthanasia when people are actually ill.

Thinking that way doesn’t make her “mentally ill.” She sounded like a very rational woman to me. I don’t understand why her choosing to die at age 75 is so problematic for some people? It would’ve been very cruel to “make her” carry on living against her will.

Euthanasia is only “problematic” for people who don’t want it. It makes perfect sense to people who want that opinion. Just because some people don’t understand why someone would choose to end their life, doesn’t mean they have the right to stop other people from doing. Give people the choice!!

It is. Apparently she’d been thinking about ending her life since she was quite young. I don’t think she was well mentally whatever anyone says.

The idea of it becoming unacceptable to simply be old is horrifying to me. And I don’t think our youth obsessed society is that far off from that.

If you were a cat or a dog, you could be sterilised or bred against your will, too, or killed while perfectly healthy, if the people who look after you decide they want that.
I'm not sure being treated like an animal is really a comparison that people should be making, here.

It's quite disturbing. She could've had 15 very hale and hearty years left before beginning the decline of old age that leads to a markedly poor quality of life.
It sounds as though there were a number of factors in this case that have been brushed over, which highlight how problematic euthanasia is for people who don't have imminently terminal illnesses.

So sorry for what happened to your nan we had similar with my nan although it was due to her vascular dementia progressing to the point where she didn't want to eat or drink anymore. It was really hard knowing what to do then because you can't force her to eat/drink, even though apart from that she was doing well. I had a convo with her the week before and she was fine-her short-term memory was terrible of course but other than that and some mobility issues, she was doing well. Her body just decided to shut down though.

I'd looked up tube feeding as that seemed like the obvious solution-but no, it's not that humane and it doesn't prolong life anyway. Watching someone die due to lack of food/fluids seems SO inhumane though.

WTF? Are you for real?

This thread is exactly the reason why I’m dead (excuse the pun) against euthanasia.

Where does it stop? Once the cats out of the bag? People that feel a bit depressed? The homeless? Old people that are made to feel like they are a burden on society? (And their kids/ the government can’t wait to cash in on their deaths?). I guess it would save the government a lot on pensions and free up housing.

It’s a sick, horrible idea. But it comes as no surprise that most voters on liberal left Mumsnet have voted YANBU.

Sounds like me... And The Who!

But... she WAS old... She just wasn't senile/decrepit/ancient... yet. Are we now pretending that 75 isn't "old"? Which is not to say that being old is necessarily a bad thing, nor that old people can't have a great life, but it IS old.

I think this woman will become a new personal role model.

This is what I would be concerned about. Especially if I had nobody to advocate for me. There's definitely worse things than dying.

Well please explain then why you need to label people as elderly? Do you have a problem with people just being people whatever age they are?

Hmm they heath professionals were tube feeding mum and giving her IV antibiotics, both against the AD requests

Didn't help was in COVID so we weren't allowed there. And mum was unable to speak for herself

I've been through BC treatment and there's no way I'm going through that again. I've made it clear to everyone that if when the cancer comes back to get me, whether it's in 5, 10 or 20 years time I will end my life. I will not suffer a prolonged, painful death.

I know how I'll do it, it will be a peaceful death. Cue horrified friends saying 'Oh no, you can't do that'. Yes I can do it. It's my life and I can end it however I like. If I was a cat or a dog I'd be euthanaised, no one would expect an animal to suffer like that.

If there's one thing that this thread is highlighting it's that we should all be able to have advance directives on what we want when we get sick as standard and this should include end of life and they should be implemented without questions if the situation arises. That's they way I'm going, but I would hate to think any health care professional would decide they knew better, which wouldn't be uncommon in my experience.

My mum died at 75. After not being treated ( eventually) after a catastrophic stroke as per her wishes which she had previously set out in an advance directive And that was a palaver trying to get the medics to recognize her AD

This is exactly what people are reporting about themselves and their family members and I’m becoming angry at those who insist that this isn’t true. Even medical professionals say this and I can only conclude that it’s wishful thinking.

That is why many of us wish to have the option of removing ourselves from life before situations like this occur. Many of us are familiar with the saying “better a week too early rather than a date too late”, with our pets and this is what’s going on here. I appreciate that people object to the parallel with veterinary care, but the dilemma is the same.

By the time you’ve had a stroke and are incapable and in hospice care, you are no longer able to make choices about your end of life.