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AIBU?

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AIBU to consider leaving our knitting group over its new policy?

691 replies

Solentseeker · 22/07/2026 22:43

I’m in a women’s knitting group. It started as just a group of friends and extended from there. We meet twice weekly in an hall that has to be booked and paid for and go on trips etc so it has become more formal over time and has a treasurer, secretary, social secretary etc. I and two other friends were founder members but we take a back seat in the organisation now. We attract lots of younger members (30-somethings!) which is great. I (early 60s) love socialising with people, hearing their views etc.

The new chairman (woman) has recently decided that we should announce that we are ‘trans friendly’ and try to attract trans women and non-binary people. Apart from the fact that I don’t know what non-binary people are other than people who don’t sign up to gender stereotypes (most of the women currently in the group don’t go in for nails / make up / fake tan etc anyway so what’s the difference?) I don’t want men in the group, trans identifying or otherwise. I’ve been sexually assaulted a few times in my lifetime, as has another of the founder members. We’ve also always appreciated having a space away from the male gaze and voice, where women can have their voice centre stage for once. I know a number of the current members are also extremely concerned about this new push and would feel pushed out too if any men join.

I have no desire to ‘out’ myself as a ‘TERF’ by complaining or pushing back as it would in their eyes make me a ‘bad’ person and I always try to do good by everyone. I just disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that men should be treated as women because they say so. It seems so seething misogynistic. I’m deeply sad about the whole situation and think I’m going to have to leave the club, because the current chairman seems to stand for things that I don’t. I appreciate women’s rights and they don’t seem to give a fig. What do politics have to do with knitting? Do I just leave? Do I wait and see whether any men try to join before leaving? I can’t be arsed to fight back even though I would have a LOT of (currently silent) supporters.

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DisillusionedIT · 25/07/2026 21:31

Sereine · 25/07/2026 10:20

That's a massive generalisation. IME, most trans women are quite quiet individuals who just want to get on with their lives. And I've certainly come across a hefty proportion of women who want to dominate any group they're in.

Glad you’ve experienced the quiet want to get on with their lives variety, I’d hoped there were some. I’ve almost always encountered the ‘I will speak for and over women’ variety that don’t let women have a voice but I did encounter one outside of work environment that acted like a little girl instead 🤮

BrickBiscuit · 25/07/2026 10:29

Slightyamusedandsilly · 24/07/2026 23:41

Is it about being fearful of violent assault OR the principle? It can't really be about both, can it?

It IS about both, as in essence they are both about the same thing. Women are conditioned biologically and socially to (a) recognise men and (b) be wary of the threat from them (this is the basis of the ‘fear’). This can be managed by mixed activities having rules and norms which help women feel safer or by excluding men (this is the basis of the ‘principle’). In some circumstances, the ‘fear’ may even be manipulated to advantage, eg in role-play sex, crime drama and performing arts. When men are present (even those who think they are women), women usually detect them and react accordingly, subconsciously or not. This changes the dynamic. In fact, it has been said that most transwomen can only ever portray the male-present side of women they see. Generally they can never experience being with women without a male present, as they are one. Women-only groups exist to enable women to meet without hypervigilance, threat and control. OP’s view of the knitting group is that it is one such group.

Sereine · 25/07/2026 10:22

StandingDeskDisco · 24/07/2026 09:46

It is not relevant. I was just responding to your post.

That isn't a response to any post of mine.

Sereine · 25/07/2026 10:20

Solentseeker · 22/07/2026 23:41

It’s socialising as women. Without men’s voices which 90% of the time dominate. Thats why it’s important. It’s a social group with a knitting focus. If men wanted to join I’d expect a decision to be made as a group, not by one person.

That's a massive generalisation. IME, most trans women are quite quiet individuals who just want to get on with their lives. And I've certainly come across a hefty proportion of women who want to dominate any group they're in.

Nos4r2 · 25/07/2026 06:43

Slightyamusedandsilly · 24/07/2026 23:41

Is it about being fearful of violent assault OR the principle? It can't really be about both, can it?

Of course it can.

Slightyamusedandsilly · 24/07/2026 23:41

Metalmotha · 24/07/2026 21:24

But it’s about the principle- this is a women’s only space and therefore no men )however they identify) should be there.

Is it about being fearful of violent assault OR the principle? It can't really be about both, can it?

Metalmotha · 24/07/2026 21:24

Slightyamusedandsilly · 24/07/2026 20:57

You think a trans woman is going to violently assault you in the middle of a knitting circle?

Although, I suppose the weapons ARE handily already there.

But it’s about the principle- this is a women’s only space and therefore no men )however they identify) should be there.

Slightyamusedandsilly · 24/07/2026 20:57

Bertiebiscuit · 24/07/2026 20:02

Yes, women can be arses, But I'm not worried they might rape, beat or murder me or any other woman who happened to piss them off. Massive difference. Duh

You think a trans woman is going to violently assault you in the middle of a knitting circle?

Although, I suppose the weapons ARE handily already there.

DeftGoldHedgehog · 24/07/2026 20:30

BabblingBiddy · 24/07/2026 20:27

Someone asked you what gender identity was
You said look it up
So i did.

How was anyone meant to know you meant look up gender reassignment even though that isnt what I was asked about?

Well, if you weren't so busy trying to start an argument in an empty room over semantics you'd realise that the initial quote you picked up on from me was about the Equality Act, and it was clear I was referring to the legal position.

BabblingBiddy · 24/07/2026 20:27

DeftGoldHedgehog · 24/07/2026 18:52

That's what I was referring to. Fairly obvious I would have thought.

Someone asked you what gender identity was
You said look it up
So i did.

How was anyone meant to know you meant look up gender reassignment even though that isnt what I was asked about?

Bertiebiscuit · 24/07/2026 20:02

Slightyamusedandsilly · 23/07/2026 10:54

I'm in no groups. Women, men, trans, gay, straight. But I wouldn't define any group I might be interested in by what the people in it have in their pants.

I'm not particularly man friendly, but I've also met plenty of women who are arseholes.

Yes, women can be arses, But I'm not worried they might rape, beat or murder me or any other woman who happened to piss them off. Massive difference. Duh

DeftGoldHedgehog · 24/07/2026 18:54

murasaki · 24/07/2026 16:11

Gender identity isn't a protected characteristic. Gender reassignment is, and sex is, but not gender identity.

Yes, but I was quite clearly referring to the legal position. I'm not a human rights lawyer so apologies for getting one word wrong on the internet. 🤔

DeftGoldHedgehog · 24/07/2026 18:52

BabblingBiddy · 24/07/2026 16:03

That's about gender reassignment. Not identity.

That's what I was referring to. Fairly obvious I would have thought.

DisillusionedIT · 24/07/2026 18:51

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/07/2026 17:12

My DP would agree with you. He works in a very male dominated tech field, he said he’s come across very few of either women or trans identified males, but more trans identified males than women. Which considering women are half the population is quite stark.

Thank-you!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/07/2026 17:12

DisillusionedIT · 24/07/2026 09:03

I’m not making up anything. This was across several high tech companies. But you haven’t worked in the industry and the non trans identified men in tech are often a bit oblivious to the impact.

It’s so male dominated the numbers of trans identified men are a small proportion as far as men are concerned.

It’s so male dominated the numbers are significant as far as the women in tech are concerned.

It means women working in that environment have a long experience of interacting with trans identified men.

Here’s an article from the trans in tech perspective https://www.siliconrepublic.com/people/trans-people-tech-gaming

Go read The Soul of a New Machine by Tracy Kidder, it was almost a footnote at the time (pub 1981) but one of the developers is trans.

I wonder what IT environment your dh works in, my experience is in very techie environments, if he hasn’t encountered any I suspect his isn’t.

But feel free to continue to accuse women who have experience you dislike because it doesn’t fit your ideological viewpoint of lying it doesn’t change the facts.

My DP would agree with you. He works in a very male dominated tech field, he said he’s come across very few of either women or trans identified males, but more trans identified males than women. Which considering women are half the population is quite stark.

murasaki · 24/07/2026 16:11

Gender identity isn't a protected characteristic. Gender reassignment is, and sex is, but not gender identity.

BabblingBiddy · 24/07/2026 16:03

DeftGoldHedgehog · 24/07/2026 15:24

That's about gender reassignment. Not identity.

StandingDeskDisco · 24/07/2026 15:32

DeftGoldHedgehog · 24/07/2026 15:24

That link answers the question of what is legally meant by the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

It doesn't answer the question 'what is gender identity?'

Nor does it answer the question 'what is "trans"?'

It says:
A reference to a transsexual person is a reference to a person who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

But not everyone who claims to be 'trans' meets the definition of gender reassignment in legal terms.

DeftGoldHedgehog · 24/07/2026 15:24

BabblingBiddy · 24/07/2026 10:36

Ive looked it up. Every website says its "an internal sense of your own gender"
Which I dont have. Im a woman because i was born female. Nothing more. Nothing less. I don't have an "internal sense" of being a woman anymore than I have an internal sense of being fat, short, brown eyed, ot any of the other things I can prove are true. (Not that im going to do so on here)

Try here www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/7

Lovelyview · 24/07/2026 15:03

emmas123 · 23/07/2026 14:52

Are people threatening to leave the group because of allowing disabled people to join, though (like OP)?

Honestly, how different is it from being 'concerned' that installing an accessibility ramp is going to change the group into a disability activist group? Whichever way you look at it - it's an incredible reach before they've even invited someone in.

No. Women are a sex class and are allowed to have women -only organisations. You can say 'transwomen' are welcome - but you should also welcome all men into the group. Because 'transwomen' are men. Not women.

BabblingBiddy · 24/07/2026 10:36

DeftGoldHedgehog · 24/07/2026 05:20

Look it up.

Ive looked it up. Every website says its "an internal sense of your own gender"
Which I dont have. Im a woman because i was born female. Nothing more. Nothing less. I don't have an "internal sense" of being a woman anymore than I have an internal sense of being fat, short, brown eyed, ot any of the other things I can prove are true. (Not that im going to do so on here)

StandingDeskDisco · 24/07/2026 09:46

Sereine · 24/07/2026 08:57

But how is that relevant to OP's position? No-one seriously contends that trans person is going to come into a knitting group and start raping everyone there.

It is not relevant. I was just responding to your post.

StandingDeskDisco · 24/07/2026 09:41

emmas123 · 23/07/2026 16:22

Cool, glad you're interested in learning more and correcting some misconceptions. I'm not avoiding the question, and it's not uncomfortable for me. But it is ridiculous arguing with someone that thinks their husband one day deciding to wear a dress is trans. I mean even trans people in the drag queen community are in the minority - so that just highlights how ridiculous a comparision the 'throwing on a dress statement'

You can start here if you wish: https://transequality.org/issues/resources/frequently-asked-questions-about-transgender-people

Literally just start googling reputable resources, because I can't be spoon-feeding.

Here is the relevant part of the text from the link, with my comments:

What does it mean to be transgender?
Transgender people are people whose gender identity is different from the gender they were thought to be at birth. “Trans” is often used as shorthand for transgender.
Babies are not 'thought to be' a gender at birth. They have a sex. It is confusing and misleading to conflate sex and gender

When we're born, a doctor usually says that we're male or female based on what our bodies look like.
Agreed, unless it is unclear and further tests are needed.

Most people who were labeled male at birth turn out to actually identify as men, and most people who were labeled female at birth grow up to be women.
Note the sleight of hand: males 'identify as' men, but females 'grow up to be' women. Identifying is a totally different thing to being. Male babies grow up to be men and female babies grow up to be women, regardless of how they may 'identify' when adult.

But some people's gender identity – their innate knowledge of who they are – is different from what was initially expected when they were born.
The 'innate knowledge of who they are' is a delusion if you are talking about sex. You are either of the male sex or of the female sex. You cannot have 'knowledge' that is just plain wrong, because that is not knowledge.
I guess you can have 'innate knowledge' of your gender, to the same extent and in a similar way that you can have 'innate knowledge' of your immortal soul.

A transgender woman lives as a woman today, but was thought to be male when she was born. A transgender man lives as a man today, but was thought to be female when he was born.
The words 'lives as' are never fully explained. How does a male person 'live as' a woman if they are a man? He can change his documents and his name. He can dress in a stereotypically feminine manner. He can adopt 'feminine' mannerism and interests. He can sneak into the female toilets. He can ask everyone around him to use female pronouns about him.
None of this is 'living as a woman'. It is pretending to be a woman.

Some transgender people identify as neither male nor female, or as a combination of male and female. There are a variety of terms that people who aren't entirely male or entirely female use to describe their gender identity, like non-binary or genderqueer.
We a dimorphic species. Everyone is either male or female.

(Note: NCTE uses both the adjectives “male” and “female” and the nouns “man” and “woman” to refer to a person’s gender identity.)
Well that is a recipe for confusion and obfuscation! If you cannot talk about sex and gender as two different things, how can you explain anything clearly.

Everyone—transgender or not—has a gender identity.
No. There is no evidence to support this assertion. Many people claim they do NOT have any gender identity. If you want to assert this, you have to first of all precisely define and explain what a gender identity actually is, then go about proving that everyone has one.

How does someone know that they are transgender?
People can realize that they're transgender at any age. Some people can trace their awareness back to their earlier memories – they just knew.
Memory is a fascinating and slippery thing. It is very clear that people can be mistaken about facts and events they remember from their childhood, let alone how they felt about themselves.

Others may need more time to realize that they are transgender.
Some people may spend years feeling like they don't fit in without really understanding why,
Typical of undiagnosed autism.

or may try to avoid thinking or talking about their gender out of fear, shame, or confusion. Trying to repress or change one’s gender identity doesn’t work; in fact, it can be very painful and damaging to one’s emotional and mental health. As transgender people become more visible in the media and in community life across the country, more transgender people are able to name and understand their own experiences and may feel safer and more comfortable sharing it with others.
For many transgender people, recognizing who they are and deciding to start gender transition can take a lot of reflection. Transgender people risk social stigma, discrimination, and harassment when they tell other people who they really are.
Nobody should be subject to discrimination and harassment. There are laws against it. Gender Reassignment is a protected characteristic.

Parents, friends, coworkers, classmates, and neighbors may be accepting—but they also might not be, and many transgender people fear that they will not be accepted by their loved ones and others in their life. Despite those risks, being open about one’s gender identity, and living a life that feels truly authentic, can be a life-affirming and even life-saving decision.
That last bit, hinting at suicide, is totally irresponsible emotional blackmail. It implies that if you don't let a transperson 'live a life that feels truly authentic', they may end their own life.

DisillusionedIT · 24/07/2026 09:03

B1mbam · 24/07/2026 06:21

My husband has experience in the area, significant experience. People who hate minority groups can make up any shit they like- as you clearly are.

Edited

I’m not making up anything. This was across several high tech companies. But you haven’t worked in the industry and the non trans identified men in tech are often a bit oblivious to the impact.

It’s so male dominated the numbers of trans identified men are a small proportion as far as men are concerned.

It’s so male dominated the numbers are significant as far as the women in tech are concerned.

It means women working in that environment have a long experience of interacting with trans identified men.

Here’s an article from the trans in tech perspective https://www.siliconrepublic.com/people/trans-people-tech-gaming

Go read The Soul of a New Machine by Tracy Kidder, it was almost a footnote at the time (pub 1981) but one of the developers is trans.

I wonder what IT environment your dh works in, my experience is in very techie environments, if he hasn’t encountered any I suspect his isn’t.

But feel free to continue to accuse women who have experience you dislike because it doesn’t fit your ideological viewpoint of lying it doesn’t change the facts.

Karla O’Brien on being trans in tech: Why are we here, and where are we?

Karla O’Brien wondered why she found so many trans people in tech – is it because of their experience exploring identity in an online world?

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/people/trans-people-tech-gaming

Sereine · 24/07/2026 08:57

StandingDeskDisco · 24/07/2026 08:54

very few of you have come across a real world issue/demonmanrapist

You need inform yourself and read up on VAWG and look into the MeToo movement.

Many millions of women have come across real world issues with men, including the transwoman variety. Many thousands (millions?) of women have been raped, and some were even raped by transwomen.

But how is that relevant to OP's position? No-one seriously contends that trans person is going to come into a knitting group and start raping everyone there.