To be sick of politicians using 'fairness' as justification for tax rises?

@VanessaFence ,

It is not how much you pay, but a percentage of what you make. Surely you wouldn’t say that a business making a billion (for example) and paying 10 million in tax is paying a lot of tax, as 10 million is a lot more than most people pay?!

You can get money out via a long term loan or selling shares to someone else. I have no idea the size of your business or what you do, but anything over a few million will be interesting to some small private equity companies.

And, as you say, you pay corporation tax. I am not an account, but that is 19% for the first 50,000 and 25% after that, way lower than higher rate personal tax.

It’s a bit of a technical argument and I am not sure germane to the thrust of this thread, but you do have a lot more choices as to how to draw your income than someone on PAYE.

What is more significant to the thread is the really wealthy (unless you are amongst them!).

‘For the top 0.1% of UK taxpayers (requiring an annual income threshold upwards of £650,000), the headline statutory marginal tax rate on income is 45%. However, the effective average tax rate (EATRs) drops significantly when including capital gains and investment income, with a substantial portion of ultra-high earners paying well below the headline rate—about a quarter of those with multi-million pound remuneration pay an effective rate near 12%.’

The majority of the top end of these people are business owners. In terms of fairness, isn’t someone who earns millions and pays 12% of it as least as much of a societal problem as a ‘benefit scrounger’.

I know their 12% is still, in absolute terms, a lot of money, but they make it by having the support of UK society, UK laws etc etc.

It's all well and good saying "you can leave money in the business" but that doesn't pay my mortgage. Also leaving money in the business means you pay corporation tax on it so I'll still get hit with a tax bill.

Yes there's more flexibility and you can decide when you take money out to minimise tax liability but ultimately you still pay tax on whatever hits your personal bank account through self-assessment.

I'm very happy to pay the tax I owe but it's annoying when people act like being a business owner is some kind of tax haven. HMRC gets me for corporation tax, employer NIC, business rates, my own personal tax return (plus the VAT I have to put on everything I sell). My annual transfers to HMRC would easily dwarf most top rate tax payers.

The trouble is, if people's tax pays to bail out people that have made bad choices, where is the incentive for the next generation not to do it?
There isn't, but the alternative is to let innocent bodies, their children, take the hit without giving them the chance to make better choices because poor choices is all they know.

Any party know that the answer is somewhere in between, but no party has found the most efficient middle. Maybe because there isn't really one.

It was common knowledge that digital ID had not yet been funded. It had already been said on the radio this morning before Darren Jones tweeted.

This is it. No one doubts that people getting benefits they shouldn't exist. But exaggerating to imply that lots or the majority of people in receipt of benefits (particularly disability benefits) arre doing this is really harmful to genuinely sick and disabled people.

The trouble is, if people's tax pays to bail out people that have made bad choices, where is the incentive for the next generation not to do it?

I would like to live in a society where people take personal responsibility for their choices
Well that's the crux of the matter. What do you do when the consequences is poverty, especially for children.

Where does personal responsibility start and societal responsibility start.

That's the question noone can answer, hence where we are and will remain for a long time!

Tbf I know one person whos one of the people you refer to as they are a close family member. You seem to know many. Thats all I was pointing out. I absolutely believe you're exaggerating to try and prove your point but literally no one will care I think that. Certainly not "the wider public" 😂

Because those who net receive benefits outnumber those who are net contributors. As a politician it’s a simple equation when you want to win votes.

I've always wondered why Labour treat people wanting to keep money they have earned as greedy, yet apparently it's not greedy for them to keep taking more and more of that money off people!

I can’t believe the amount of people prepared to make the counter factual argument that business owners pay the same rate of tax as employees.

They pay a lower rate on average, and that is a fact. Of course, that doesn’t go for every single business or business owner, and the scale of tax efficiency grows with the size of the business. But anecdote doesn’t trump data and, if you do even a tiny bit of research, you will find that is correct.

You can argue whether it is a good thing (and I do think true entrepreneurs should be lauded and rewarded) but you can’t argue whether it is a thing. It is.

The reason is the flexibility. A business owner can split their income between leaving money in the business, taking dividends and taking a salary to optimise tax efficiency.

And there are all sorts of ways of getting money out of the business other than a full sale such as selling a portion via private equity or the business loaning money at a low interest rate until it is sold.

💯

I just find it really strange that op knows so much personal information and future plans about a lot of people. I wouldnt call it sneering but its cool if you do

the problem (in my opinion) is that they are throwing money at the NHS which doesn’t bear fruit; they don’t hold Civil Servants to account and they aren’t prepared to completely overhaul the education system so that it is actually fit for purpose.
Without grassroots change we are simply burning money.

48%.

One where everybody pulls their weight to the best of their ability. There are very few people who can’t do anything at all.

Are you just here for the sneer?

Hearing this made me question my motives:
Are you a Socialist because you love poor people or because you hate the rich?

Where I live there is a definite culture of one man businesses who only accept cash. Eg many in hairdressing/beauty are renting a chair in a salon & only accept cash. I doubt they pay much in tax. Many tradesmen doing similar.

The issue is that higher rate tax payers are far more likely to have private health and dental plans. Their only contact with the NHS would be A+E, and possibly a GP for referrals (although many plans now include remote GP consultations).

I have work colleagues (many of them immigrants) who have had literally no contact with what we consider institutions: the NHS, state schools, council leisure centres and swimming pools, libraries, the list goes on. They have no experience of these and barely know they exist.

We have transitioned from a low pay low cost country to a lower pay high cost country.

There's no way back now.

I didnt say that. Odd!

Its just you seem to know an awful lot of people who are so honest about their finances and blatent plans to stay on benefits. Its good they feel they can be so open with you I suppose 🥰