To ask why people think it’s okay to abuse NHS staff?

@SerenaCat93 That isn't fair to vets! Vets and vet nurses are on the whole are extremely kind to the animals.

My mum has been in/out of hospitals for the past year with the same symptoms - so I've experienced a lot of NHS recently :-(

(no dept wants to investigate why so that she can ditch the newly acquired blue badge home carers and go back to leading her normal very active busy bee life ..but that's another thread)

• The nurses shout at her like she's deaf, and act like she is a nuisance when she rings for the commode (after making her wait). She has wet herself waiting on numerous occasions because she cannot move. she would love to simply get up and walk to the toilet herself.

• the staff come along at random, close the curtains and strip her nightclothes off - "we are washing you now" . No permission, no requesting... they just come and access your body. don't forget to be grateful now.

• The doctors and ward staff act like you're irritating when you ask what the next steps are, or what is planned next etc or just an update. You know, because mum was off her face on morphine at that early stage of admission and can't remember what was said on the rounds

• the treatment plan changes, and doesn't seem to make sense... but don't you dare ask staff why. Be grateful now, remember.

• you're told to keep on top of your pain, and ask for pain relief . "we never let anyone be in pain" - apart from when the shift changes over and the nurses spend so long faffing about before giving people their pain relief that they were due 60-90 minutes ago. Not isolated - every bloody morning, in both hospitals on all four wards. But "we never let anyone be in pain". Don't raise this with the matron either, you ungrateful little ...

• the carers at come - they come in and start bossing her about in her own home. Again shouting, acting like they're doing her a favour getting her some bread from the kitchen or filling a water bottle up. Are you grateful yet?

I could go on and on. So many more examples. And sadly probably more to come.

IMO the banging of the saucepans at 8pm every night on doorsteps up and down the country contributed to the elevation of NHS staff to God-like status and trained us all to never, ever question anything from anyone wearing an NHS badge. Belongs in the folder mad shit we did in covid, filed right next to "washing the tinned groceries".

The system isn't any good to either majority. Neither patients nor staff.

What people in any public facing role need to remember (be taught in proper training) is that the public aren't talking to you, they're talking to your organisation. In that moment you are the organisation.

In some circumstances it's taken them hours or even months to get as far as talking to you. To then have "the organisation" tell them they can't help is going to infuriate, and if they're also in pain and worried as well as frustrated, the human response isn't always going to be nice.

If you do proper training you learn to diffuse these situations by taking responsibility. Everyone knows it's not your fault, but it is the fault of the organisation you represent, and to the person you're talking to you are that organisation.

It's staggering how many NHS staff don't get that, but again not the fault of individuals, but of the organisation and it's culture.

@Lordofmyflies the cost is interesting. I have been called for my shingles jab by my surgery (excellent). It costs about £450. However, I was also called for the pneumonococcal vaccine. The sysyem woukd not let me make one appointment for both jabs. I had to phone to arrange that.

It seems to me that just a little joined up thinking would save everyone time and make things more efficient. That's what's missing.

Your mistake here is to think that they even get as far as deciding its ok.

They dont even stop to consider whether its ok or not.

They dont think about you at all.

They only see themselves and the problem they are having.

You are just a malfunctioning device, like a wonky telly that you thump on the top to get the picture back.

Everyone public facing / serving gets it from such people.

You cant reason with them because they are the same people who think the person they are dealing with (admin, receptionist, call centre worker) is in control of company policy, has the ability to give them whatever they want and is simply choosing not to in order to ruin their life.

There is just no getting through to that level of stupid.

I have seen staff being routinely rude,unnecessarily brusque, and condescending to patients. Any human reaction to such poor communication is instantly labelled as 'Anna's which seems now to be used as a shield for NH S to avoid valid criticism. The attitude towards patients by some staff would simply not be tolerated in any other sector but the British public is meant to accept at times really quite inhumane treatment.

I agree it is wrong to verbally abused staff but it is also wrong to test patients poorly which is the experience of many of us.

DM waited 1½ hours for her GP surgery to answer her call last week. Yes, she could have requested a call back before that time, she did eventually, but one and a half hours just to answer the phone?!

She wasn't abusive when they called her back, but I can see how people get frustrated with the NHS when making calls to them. I wouldn't be abusive either.

1000 fine per offence would make them think before they abuse.

Some NHS admin staff are awful egotists. They act like they’re actually medical staff with power and superiority. I can totally see why some people get pissed off. I dealt with one recently, she tried telling me a dental abscess was not a medical emergency.

I worked in the NHS as a frontline clinical member of staff for only 5 years when I was in my mid 20's. As a young woman, I had my ass groped, was spat at (many times), was slapped, pinched and then bitten. I have taken case histories of patients who refused to take their head phones off. I have been to occ health for blood tests following potential transmission of disease and endured weeks of waiting to get the all clear.

It is a complex melting pot. People are often scared, in pain, been waiting for hours, drunk or under influence of drugs. There is the unseen costs of medical treatment - the majority of people have no idea the cost of a blood test or x-ray. There is a sense of free at point of delivery but what paid in by many users, never covers costs. I do think people value "free" services less than paid and very rarely to you see the same level of abuse in private healthcare ( comparing in patient wards).

Actually, DH and I pay an annual tax bill exceeding six figures. We also pay for private health care, without tax relief. There are some parts of the NHS, such as A&E that are not privately accessible.

I don't expect five star luxury from the NHS. I do expect there to be good communication, courtesy, dignity and a clean environment. It's the bare minimum and the NHS needs to raise its bar from the lowest to the highest common denominator.

Not long ago, when I went to my local hospital for a specialist scan, the administrator was sitting doing her knitting. I was polite to her, she was not particularly polite to me. The clinical staff were incredible.

That member of staff may be on Grade2 wages but those wages also come with access to an NHS pension, sick pay, paid annual leave and probably a degree of flexible working. Those benefits do not always extrapolate to private sector cleaning, hospitality and a plethora of other paid workers who do not also work in a relatively protected unionised environment.

Not long ago my 88 year old mother had to book a blood test. She isn't technologically literate so telephoned. The response "I'm not making it for you, if you can't use the computer get someone who can" Of course I did and complained to the CEO about the attitude. I got a fulsone apology and I hope the person got their backside kicked. Not in a million years would my mother have been rude, but an NHS employee at Kings College Hospital, left a vulnerable old lady, facing heart surgery in tears. That isn't good enough regardless of wages.

Also perhaps the people who run the NHS have dirty toilets, grubby lounges and share their bedrooms with a bunch of randoms at home. Most decent people do not. Being in hospital has become sub human and anyone who thinks prevailing standards are acceptable needs a brain transplant. Notably, when mother was in, in a mixed ward, with some very rowdy bedfellows, one of the HCAs said she was tired and kipped on an empty bed for a couple of hours. Mother was horrified. The nurses and doctors were generally fine, as were reception staff but the organisation was woeful. Mother had one op cancelled at 12 hours notice and lost the cost of rail tickets for her and step, and the cost of an overnight hotel the night before, because she had to report at 8am and they live 80 miles away. Marvellous that the NHS provides complex heart procedures to an old lady, but the means of delivering is not acceptable.

FWIW, I copied West Streeting, the MP local to the hospital and my mother's MP. All wrote back with dismay. I of course thanked them for the provision of the surgery. I'd have happily paid for her but the surgery on the NHS costs about £8k; privately due to the complexity, number of staff and the equipment needed it's £50k. The NHS can do six a day you see; privately, a hospital does one.

All clinicians and nurses were thanked. The nurses were given cake and chocolates.

It's not ok at all. I do wonder whether people sometimes confuse being unable to get what they want/need with the member of staff being discourteous. If we haven't got it to give, we can't give it. This should be explained politely though!

I am not "making anything up" OP

In your first post you said " I was then told that if this patient died on the way to their appointment it would be blood on my hands, and I should hope they don’t."

Forgive me, but this gives the impression the patient was seriously ill

You then accused a poster who stated that "But honestly dealing with the NHS can be such a frustrating and labyrinthine process that I am surprised we don’t have hospital shootings" as an indication that she "advocated for people to be shot because you didn’t get an answer in time". Can you not see that this was clearly not the case?

Later another poster stated that even if a GP has to cancel an appointment due to their own ill health they should apologise "because it is polite to apologise for changing appointments, causing a patient to rearrange their commitments, cancel or rebook annual leave, etc". You countered this aggressively with "You’re not entitled to someone else’s private medical information. If the appointment gets moved it’s moved, why do you need to abuse people for that?" both completely missing the point (again) and aggressively accusing the poster of abuse!!

You have veered from spending an hour arranging "patient transport" which tends to be door to door vehicular transport to the hospital to "wheelchairs". Presumably the patient was not intending to travel to the actual appointment in a wheelchair, so once again, you are changing the narrative

So no, I am not making anything up! And I stand by my point that if a caller states that their relative could die on the way to hospital, this infers their condition is serious

Yes, you are correct. A vet was a very poor comparison for the way patients are treated by NHS staff, they've always been kind and patient with my animals.

I haven't RTFT so sorry if I am repeating what someone else has said. I work for the NHS. I think the problem is because it is a public service and we (the public) pay into it, the public then think they have a control of it and anyone who works in the NHS should behave how they say. The amount of patients who chase seeing a particular GP and then question their whereabouts if they aren't available is ludicrous, no one in another sector but we questioned where they are, it would be accepted. We are just normal people the same as anyone else on this thread. Think about the amount of times someone on here has said they will 'report' someone for doing something because they are NHS staff. They wouldn't report them to their employer if they worked in the Tesco etc. It really is frightening how the general public think they have a hold on us because we work for the NHS. Sorry this was your experience OP, I am sure you tried your best.

My mum had an NHS physio appointment becuase she can't currently walk more than a few steps The (outsourced) physio is at a local leisure centre down a long corridor. When talking to the person who booked the appointment I asked how we'd go about securing a wheelchair to get her to the appointment.

It was as if we'd asked for the world and no one had ever considered that people needing physio might struggle with a long walk. On that occasion I was incredulous but not rude, but I can see why someone in pain, who'd finally been offered some help, and was now struggling to see how they might actually get there might have been.

My vet was very kind, and described what she was checking for when she examined my cat. Then she kindly explained all the pregnancy issues I was experiencing.

Whereas my consultant for my high risk pregnancy (who failed to prescribe me meds to prevent pre-eclampsia in spite of my bringing it up - yup, I got it), complained to me that she wanted to go home, and that the nurses were being slow.

Someone close to me is a wheelchair user, and she has been refused important appointments for scans because the clinic's weren't wheelchair accessible. Other clinics when she had already asked about wheelchair access beforehand and was told it was accessible, she turned up and was unable to get in because the disabled access had been blocked off, and staff were extremely rude and unpleasant when she asked for help.
She's also had some awful experiences with nurses who were downright abusive to when she was an inpatient in hospital. She's a lovely person and has never been anything other than polite, but I wouldn't blame her if she did snap at them. Someone else I know has been diagnosed with PTSD due to birth trauma caused specifically due to abusive behaviour from NHS midwives while she was giving birth.. I have plenty of sympathy for nhs workers who get undeserved abusive behaviour from patients but I think they should realise that even if they personally have been polite to the patient, people are increasingly likely to have had traumatic experiences with the NHS relating to their own care or that of their loved ones. Respect has to go both ways, and while I'm not condoning patients being rude to staff, NHS staff need to start being much less rude and abusive to patients, especially the most vulnerable, who get treated shockingly. The NHS needs a massive culture change to make it better for everyone, patients and staff.

And this is the attitude that makes patients rude to staff.

Being treated with dignity and respect, explaining what you are doing to me and obtaining consent first are not fucking luxuries! They are basic patient rights! We are not animals at the fucking vet!

If you can't do your job properly stop whining about being paid no more than a shop worker who does less than you and go and work in a shop instead.

NHS workers really need to get over their god complexes. It's repulsive.

No, and I've never done that to anyone either.

But everyone has a waning degree of tolerance, and she's encountered someone who's lost theirs.

I've worked with people with traumatic backgrounds, and if I find it hellish to navigate the NHS, they will find it a thousand times more so.

As it happens, I usually get all sorts of positive comments in the NHS - happy chatting, asking if I have a medical background because I know a basic amount of Latin to navigate the medical terms used, and work for a medical research charity.

And I fucking hate these little pats on the head, because it's not just degree-educated casual Latin speakers who deserve to be treated well. And in spite of being a model patient, I'm still not always treated well.

I'm not talking out of my arse here - it's a significant part of my job to address health inequalities that are in many cases CREATED by the NHS.

I dont know OP, it not ok, people are fucking horrible and I'm sure they're getting worse. Its not acceptable, just as it's not acceptable when NHS staff abuse the public either.

You are a number in a very long queue and we are doing our best to get round to you while being overworked and massively underpaid ourselves.

This is where the problem is.

I’m not a number. I’m a person
and patient.

You, however, treat me as a number.

But it's so counter intuitive. Poor care for me -not listening when I kept trying to point out I wasn't having the tests and nebulisers the doctors had asked for - almost cost the NHS a fortune in extra nights in hospital (and it would have been even more expensive if they had missed a deterioration).
I used the Martha's rule system and got a review and thankfully everything got sorted swiftly then. Listening to patients and ensuring (where appropriate) they know what is meant to be happening and why isn't a "luxury" it's a basic essential to ensure patients are able to take the best care of them selves and play an active part in monitoring

I totally agree! In my local A&E, think ‘state of the art brand new hospital’, they opened in 2021. But they then closed all of the A&Es within a 30 mile radius! So a huge area of people all filtering into 1 (small) hospital. The average wait time for kids is 9 hours, and it reaches 30 hours during winter for adults! It’s insane. I feel bloody sorry for the NHS staff who put up with this. They get so much stick for something out of their control.

One really simple thing I cannot understand is why there aren't chairs to sit on while waiting to talk to reception at my local a&e and doctors and pharmacy. Standing to queue makes me feel so unwell and I often see others struggle with it too. Surely it should be obvious that some of the people waiting in line are unwell and need a more considered queueing system? Why not use a ticket system like in Clarks so people can sit while they wait?

She isn’t calling you all useless thick bitches and swearing at you all though is she?

Britain is a strange place full of divisions at the moment. Work doesn’t pay and some people have inherited the earth for doing nothing. I’d remind you that band 2 NHS workers are now minimum wage. Band 2 covers most admin and healthcare workers as well as cleaners and kitchen staff. Economics matter, and the wage paid to those who deal with the public being no higher than those who don’t means you’re not entitled to special customer service care skills.

Some of the public who come in seem to expect - like the pp upthread who went private - a remarkably personalised conversation and social experience, as if she’s a guest approaching a luxury hotel who will tip staff an extra few hundred on top of the costs of the visit.

Well you’re not a guest paying thousands for luxury. Most have not paid in enough for even the very basic care that is all we are funded to provide. You are a number in a very long queue and we are doing our best to get round to you while being overworked and massively underpaid ourselves.

Some people really need a reality check on what survival and life and death means, because that is where the NHS and many of its staff are. You don’t like it, if you want the luxury private experience then pay for it, if you want flattery pay for it, if you want social interactions rather than a queue then pay for it. And go complain to the politicians that it is like this. So many complain about ‘rudeness’ when all it is is we didn’t tug our forelocks enough for your liking. No, we are not here for that.