Autism vs trans - clashing views

Reassure your own teenager that you agree and value his stance on this issue but to make school life easier just go along with whatever the school and social consensus is when he goes back because in the grand scheme of things it’s irrelevant to him and his life. As you say he’s intelligent so he can understand this. “It’s not the hill to die on baby” basically.

I think there are people on this thread who have suggested that using the correctly-sexed pronouns for this child would be equivalent to “being an arse”.

And if not on this thread then there are certainly a lot of TRAs who have said that elsewhere, and indeed even more hyperbolic statements about “literal violence” of “misgendering”.

Refusing to use any pronouns and just using the trans identifying persons name is considered the correct legal compromise.
This is because a person with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment must not be harassed by being unnecessarily referred to by their biological sex (there will be times when it is nesscary to mention the person's actual sex).
This is also because a person with the protected characteristic of belief or even lack of belief cannot be harassed and compelled to use wrong sex pronouns.

So it is correct to say that nobody has to use chosen pronouns however it would be wrong to say that he can use correct pronouns in front of this child. Comprising and only using the child's name is the only way forward for everybody.

Women can’t live as men.

But if you mean women who mistakenly think they are men then they don’t tend to dress in fetish like the men do so that is less applicable.

And yes, I feel exactly the same about public money being used on certain “treatments” for women who think they’re men.

I find it offensive that women who feel a certain way about themselves or who have certain “manly” interested or hobbies or hairstyles think that that makes them a man.

Its offensive to men in the same way womanface is offensive to women.

Just like blackface is offensive.

I’m not the person you asked but yes, this is what I would do. People change their names for all sorts of reasons- some names are more masculine or feminine but anyone can be named anything. I’ve known men with what I think of as female names and vice versa (not trans people). Naming conventions are different across different parts of the world and through different times in history. I’d have no problem calling a trans-identifying man ‘Jane’. Yes, in his head it’s because I see him as a woman, while in my head, it’s because some men have female names.

I can’t apply the same logic to pronouns. British English uses pronouns according to the sex of the person or animal being discussed (apart from when we’re talking about a hypothetical person or a person whose sex isn’t known, in which case it’s ‘they/them’). I use he/him for males and she/her for females. If I genuinely didn’t know what sex a person was, I’d use they/them (but this has never happened to me yet and I’ve been around a long time).

So yes, I can use ‘Jane’ for a man, but not ‘she’. In reality, this might mean I would avoid spending much time with Jane, which would likely be interpreted as pretending trans people don’t exist. I do acknowledge that people exist who have trans identities, but I don’t share their beliefs about reality so any sort of friendship would likely be difficult.

Ignoring a colleague’s pronoun choice would (or rather, should) not get you into trouble in the workplace.

No one can be forced to call a man “she”. He is blatantly, not a “she”.

It’s perfectly possible to interact with people at work without using wrong-sex pronouns and without breaching any policy or law.

You have partially misunderstood. I was commenting on a PP who said something like deliberately ignoring a colleague’s pronoun choices could get you into trouble in the workplace. I believe this is a possibility.

I'd just tell him to stay away. You only need to use pronouns if you talk about someone so he can just avoid talking about them.

If it’s helpful @sunshine244 Transgender Trend have produced a free resource.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/product/autism-gender-identity/

The SENCO won’t be there when he leaves school, becomes an adult or at home. He/she won’t even be there much within school. It is very much mostly the parents job too they will be the ones to pick up any flack at school and beyond with zero support.

If it was just up to me as a parent I'd say it's fine to tell the truth if you need to say something, but don't go out of your way to keep pointing out she's a girl as would be bullying. It's not just up to me because school are involved.

The immediate problem is the potential for the child to be punished by school for telling the truth. Or maybe they won't - if OP hasn't spoken to school this may just be the other parent trying to impose her beliefs.

In general life you can speak how you like.

In an employment situation, I'd suggest OP's son, as an adult, take it up with the employer if he feels his speech is being compelled and in particular if he feels he's being discriminated against due to compelled speech being particularly difficult due to his disability. As he's now a child, I think this is one it's appropriate for OP to support him with.

The Equality Act is civil law so no crime would be committed by breaching that. Also, OPs son is an individual so the Equality Act places no legal obligations on him

They would be skating on thin ice with the Equality Act. I read about this somewhere recently. If you accidentally forget the pronoun or have explained that transgender is against your beliefs, you may be on solid ground but if you are deemed to be deliberately using the ‘wrong’ pronoun to humiliate your colleague, you could get into trouble.

i’m not a lawyer.

Well it depends on the individual

Some teenagers NT, ND, trans, straight, gay, combinations doesn’t matter, some have no friends regardless it’s not what you are it’s who you are that matters.

So yes OP’s son might struggle with new pronouns but his friends won’t care, so if he messes up he can just say a parrot sorry and go hang out with his friends because they won’t care.

Yes, autistic children are more likely to come to the conclusion that they are better off being the opposite sex for lots of reasons.

• boys who aren't into boy things
• boys who find girls company easier and feel they should be 'one of the girls'.
• children who are looking for reasons they don't fit in can latch onto this as being the reason. The subsequent acceptance and love bombing and protection of their new special identity becomes proof they had drawn the right conclusion
• boys who experience feeling vulnerable and scared and translate that as feeling feminine
• girls who are told they cant play football etc. and notice that if they were a bit they would have different opportunities in school automatically
• girls who realise theft are at more risk because of their sex and want to opt out

Exactly. The trans rights supporters will tell you that all young people are on board, so surely she’ll have plenty of friends and supporters?

So take the drama out of it by steering him away from engaging in the debate.

My son's in an autism unit. A whole community of literal, black and white thinkers including some who are trans. None of them are stomping around demanding to use the original names or pronouns of their friends because of their autism. They are just quietly getting on with treating all their peers with respect, just like their teachers model to them, whatever the teachers' and students' private thoughts on trans identification. Being in specialist they do of course get more help with this than your son, but they are likely coming from a position of higher needs too.

"Scientific" is not a helpful label here. Most of the many trans autistic students I've come across study science. My autistic DC1 doesn't know the given names of half their uni friends. He needs to be able to navigate this social situation without repeatedly imposing his own choice of pronouns on other people.

The CPS had to withdraw similar schools guidance (that ignoring and othering “trans children” and saying they shouldn’t be in the opposite sex space was a hate crime) when challenged legally.

Believing you can change sex is NOT worthy of respect in a democratic society ( woriads ) . This comes from the Grainger case and was used in the Forester case where a GC view was Woriads . In the case Smith v Northumberland it was held that GI and that it is possible to change sex the opposite was found and therefore is not Woriads ( just like flat waters or young earth creationism ) no matter how much you want it to be .

OP ignore the bullying from the trans parents , your son is correct.

Schools might have an influence over the public appearance of a teenage playground but it’s smoke and mirrors.

You can’t make teenagers be friends with people they don’t like.

Teenagers can become isolated socially at school and there is nothing a school can do about it. Yes they can have a “buddy up” rota or lunch clubs for them not to be alone but they can’t force friendships, real friendships.

So if you demand that specific conditions should apply to your, and just your teenager, you could end up making situations a whole heap worse.

In this case, in an ideal playground, the teens who don’t care about what pronouns someone wants at that time would hang out and the ones who think you can’t change pronouns hang out separately so conflict is avoided. And everyone tows the school line whatever that is because that’s just how it is.

What crime do you think may be committed if the advice on this thread is followed?

Exactly, I absolutely don’t think he should be arguing the toss with her personally. But he shouldn’t be forced to adhere to it either. Schools should not be giving these children the idea that everything they demand will be granted.

No the Equality Act points are more in relation to general assertions about the fact that gender critical views are recognised.

Interestingly though the age of criminal responsibility in the England Wales is 10 so, in theory at least, if the OP‘s child did follow some of the advice on this thread they could find themselves being investigated by the police. But in reality I imagine that the first action for the school would be likely to be their own behaviour policy.

Nonetheless, if we teach children that deliberate misgendering or other discrimination is fine, and that anyone who identifies as trans should be treated as an abusive, coercive, fantasist they are likely to have some serious problems in the workplace when they are older unless the law in England and Wales changes before then.

Sending a letter to someone isn’t a crime in and of itself but can contribute to a number of crimes where there is actual criminal behaviour involved. It’s not illegal to observe someone’s sex or to cause offence. And higher courts have tended to overturn on appeal. I don’t know of any “misgendering” case that’s survived an appeal. See r v Kate Scottow.

Trans identifying people need to get used to the fact that they cant coerse others into acts of religious observance or compelle their speach.
Trans identifying people need to learn to live in the real world where other people have rights too.
Trans identifying people need to understand that other people will never truly see them as the opposite sex because they aren't.

Refusing to participate in someone else's religion or delusion does not make someone a "dick head", however demanding that someone else adheres to your religion or affirms your religion against their wishes makes you a dick head.

I think it should always be fine to largely ignore someone you don’t get on with. Actively bullying them is different. You can’t make people like each other, especially at 12. I wish my school bullies had just kept away from me! If he has to talk to her for school reasons, I would just advise him to be pleasant and to attempt to avoid pronouns.