India – loved it, but I came back feeling so violated.

my opinion hasn’t been formed without firsthand experience.

• interesting. Can I ask what countries they are from- Serbia is one? And do you feel they raised you according to their countries' norms, not British ones? Or a mix of both?

My grandfather was from Poland but my grandmother was English and I don't think my mother was raised according to non-British norms (maybe it would have been different if her mother had been the Polish one). Otoh she has friends (like the godmother I mentioned earlier) who were raised by 2 Polish parents (a lot of WW2 refugees came to our area) and they mainly live by British norms rather than other ones.

On the flip side, Haaland was born in the UK as his father was playing football there but went back to Norway after only three years so in addition to having Norwegian parents he was raised and spent the bulk of his childhood in Norway. Hence it makes sense he chose to play for Norway.

Its entirely possible, if his father had stayed for longer in England and he'd grown up here he might have chosen differently (although maybe not. I guess there was also his father's legacy to uphold). But if he had would people really be saying that even though he was born and brought up in England he would always be Nordic and never English? Ah, what might have been. But having Haaland and Bellingham on the England squad would have been awesome.

I had to travel to India for work - they literally provided me with a security guard. He walked me door to door the entire trip. The only time he left me alone was in the hotel - it was a 5 star American branded hotel so security was incredible there.

However - I must say - the entire time I was there, I didnt so much as notice a creepy leer in my direction. The men (and women) couldn't do enough for me.

Maybe it was because we were constantly in 5 star places and they knew their tip would be cut if they acted inappropriately.

Your post has made me realise why they put on the security - just because I didnt see it - doesnt mean its not there.

It’s not always easy. My DH has lived in my country for 30 years, so more than half his life. When we go abroad and people ask where he is from (English is his first language) he now says the country he lives in (we live in) and people are always confused. Where do you draw the line saying which country you are actually from..

The thing is though that as I said to pp, black French people came from the colonies en masse since the 1950s. So a black person in , say, 1990s-2000s France or later (not sure when this was) could well have been born & raised there, they wouldn't necessarily be an immigrant.

Yes, if they're claiming that, then it's hypocritical.

Call me old-school, but it's not like groping or being spat at on the street or being punched. A few hurty words is nothing.

• I see what you mean. Otoh I think at least some verbal aggression isn't simply 'hurty words'. Racial slurs for one, or slurs towards disabled people. Sexual harassment can also be verbal, I don't think that should be dismissed as 'just hurty words'

I have come across examples of white people born in the Middle East who integrated into the culture from birth (rather than living temporarily as expats) and were accepted as citizens of those particular countries.

Overall though, I think the ME is a poor example, since ethnic conflict is common there, as well as other kinds, so it's unsurprising kids with foreign born parents are less likely to be accepted.

My own example would be my godmother. Born & raised in London but both parents Polish refugees. Should she not be able to call herself British? She certainly still has connections to Polish culture but it would feel bizarre to say she is 'not British' or 'more Polish than British ' .

I was also thinking if by this argument icons of French culture like Charles Aznavour, Isabelle Adjani and Yves Montand are 'not French'. None had French parents : Aznavour's were Armenian refugees, Adjani is German-Arab Algerian, and Montand's were Italian.

Aha 😂, sorry again but I just had to ask for some reason.

Sorry, I don't mean to 🤣 It just sometimes happens when I quote someone and then hit enter.

So, is your take that only Arabs can be Middle Eastern? Because that's quite a hot take...

Apart from the very obvious 🐘 in the room that I'm not going to touch, while "Arab" is a sort of ethnicity (that gets complicated when people try to tightly define it), places like Lebanon and Jordan have a wide range of types of people and phenotypes all of which would consider themselves Lebanese/Jordanian and only some of whom would call themselves Arab. I think usually Iran is considered part of the Middle East but definitely not Arab. Then there's the Kurds...
It's hard to think of a worse example than "being born in the Middle East doesn't make you an Arab" if your point is being born in England doesn't make you English.

I suppose he's arguing that there was room before but that with both middle class women and men there, working class men didn't have room. A bit like house prices rising when women worked outside the home more and two salaries became more common.

But that doesn't mean middle class women should go to uni less, if that's what he wants.

And as you say, he ignores working class women totally.

@Jane379 Sorry, I swear I am just curious, but what is with the dot before a question in your posts? I’ve seen it a couple of times today. 😅

But the majority of European heritage people in Argentinia came across in the 20th Century especially during a wave of migration in the 1950s and 1960s and later. Much like many of the players in the English or French squad have grandparents who came to the UK in the same time period. Indigenous culture is much less strong in Argentina than other South American countries anyway. Tango came from black slaves originally and is now part of Argentinian cultural identity. Which is fine, but it's then a bit rich to claim that black men in France are incapable of taking on French culture/identity/nationality. Again,.double standards.

(Besides which, and not to get too far of topic, the Falklands islands were settled a long long time before Messi's great grandparents came to Argentina. Yet, many in Argentina, consider this an occupation still. Therefore, even the few Argentinians (not Messi) who can also trace their ancestry all the way back to the Spanish arrivals 500 years ago, arent Argentinian.

This, definitely. I would be interested in watching that film.

Yes, that's right.

a husband finds his wife sexually attractive and makes it known

• what do you mean?

my own take on this is that such women, deep down, wish the UK was overtaken by men from cultures (not race) who treat women like shit.

• why would they want that?

Did your little sister grow up in the ME also?

That's rather a bold statement, that Catholicism is 'not Christianity'!

By your logic, then, 50% of the world's Christians are 'not Christian'.

What about Orthodox Christians? Are they also 'not Christian' in your view?

Honestly, and this I do stress is my experience, a lot of the the hyper awareness of each and every type of thing that could be considered problematic if you look at it upside down, from the left, and through a squint, is from
non immigrants wanting to be offended on our behalf.

The same type people of person that likes to co-opt us as allies for whatever their wider cause is, with no thought to us as individuals with our own agency. The same type that, when you disagree with them, will tell you you’re stupid, brainwashed, and uninformed; and that they are in fact better qualified to speak for on behalf of your immigrant self than you are. It’s at that point that you realize that this type are all about their own egos.

Tbh I prefer an out and out xenophobe, because they at least don’t pretend to be my friend.

I’m Scandinavian and can also very often spot where in Scandinavia/Europe someone comes from.

My DH who has worked all over the world for about 30 years is an expert in guessing exactly where people are from, or sometimes even which regions.

Speaking of Middle East I have never ever come across any harassment. North Africa, yes, and many other countries. I have had problems with Indian people in Dubai though. Just pushing and generally being way too close and I hate it.

There is no way in hell a white person born in the Middle East to British parents would be considered an Arab.

Why do you think that is?

Do you mean nationality rather than ethnicity?

The modern nation state is about citizenship. Well in the west anyway. Ethnicity is about origins, I think. So, you can usually tell if someone has Asian, European, or African origins from appearance for example. Skin colour can certainly be a part of that. Of course, when people have a variety of ethnic origins, the recessive can be masked by a dominant phenotype. So, still there, but maybe not quite obvious.

Nationality in western countries is not dependent on skin colour, to be fair. Some other countries have processes that are so regulated, and so discretionary, it is very difficult for an outsider to become a citizen. Rather a FO if you don’t share their heritage/ethnicity.

Yes, it's quite a complex thing. A lot of it is to do with integration.