India – loved it, but I came back feeling so violated.

Must have SEN to be this naive.

But where in the ME is this kind of behaviour the norm. None of the countries people have mentioned are Middle Eastern. Pakistan, Turkey, North African countries aren’t Middle eastern.

Your 12yo daughter was asking why a man touched mummy?

Your 12yo daughter was asking why a man touched mummy?

It’s a great film. Of course not Hollywood level but very interesting. And because the film is Malaian you avoid the White Saviour nonsense and get a more nuanced look at the problem of FGM but also some insight into why it persists (even among women pushing it on their daughters).

It was very low budget though. Think I got it from the library or Love Film back when Love Film was a thing.

Or it could be that, while football is obviously popular throughout France, it's most popular (or most viewed as a dream career) in certain parts of France such as Marseilles or in cities rather than rural areas. Or that the facilities/clubs to scout and bring on promising talent are located more in urban areas than rural areas. And that because urban areas have a higher concentration of ethnic minorities than rural areas this skews the statistics. Even if you don't have a deliberate policy, the fact that some of the greatest footballers (eg Eric Cantona) came from Marseille could have an inspirational effect on younger children in that city of all races, so a pattern develops that children from those areas are more likely to go on to be footballers. I can't find any statistics on whereabouts in France French footballers were born/grew up though. It's just supposition on my part that it might be because French football is heavily linked to regional identity, rather than an ethnic integration thing.

Honestly - this is massively off topic but the level of racism and questioning of their identity the French team has received is part of the reason I would love for them to lift the WC trophy (well, only if we can’t!)

The Paraguayan senator, past comments from the Argentina team (and as you mention it’s really weird for settler states to be coming out with that) and then the recent comments by the Spanish former president have all been diabolical. It’s a weird way of “othering” people based on melanin levels while whining that people don’t integrate / assimilate.

Anyway just wanted to respond but will get back on topic now!

I have come across examples of white people born in the Middle East who integrated into the culture from birth (rather than living temporarily as expats) and were accepted as citizens of those particular countries.

Overall though, I think the ME is a poor example, since ethnic conflict is common there, as well as other kinds, so it's unsurprising kids with foreign born parents are less likely to be accepted.

My own example would be my godmother. Born & raised in London but both parents Polish refugees. Should she not be able to call herself British? She certainly still has connections to Polish culture but it would feel bizarre to say she is 'not British' or 'more Polish than British ' .

I was also thinking if by this argument icons of French culture like Charles Aznavour, Isabelle Adjani and Yves Montand are 'not French'. None had French parents : Aznavour's were Armenian refugees, Adjani is German-Arab Algerian, and Montand's were Italian.

It's largely a Western phenomenon to give someone citizenship and then view them as somehow as much from/of that country as the natives, though.

• what about people born in that country but with parents from another country?

This, definitely. I would be interested in watching that film.

It's an interesting question. I think it's mainly about integration. The French team can be seen as French because they are integrated into French culture as well as being born in France.

Although I think it's concerning that although France is 78% white, almost all of their team are black or Arab. That shows that people of different ethnicities in France are doing different things which is not good for integration. Other European teams have a better mix.

Do you mean nationality rather than ethnicity?

The modern nation state is about citizenship. Well in the west anyway. Ethnicity is about origins, I think. So, you can usually tell if someone has Asian, European, or African origins from appearance for example. Skin colour can certainly be a part of that. Of course, when people have a variety of ethnic origins, the recessive can be masked by a dominant phenotype. So, still there, but maybe not quite obvious.

Nationality in western countries is not dependent on skin colour, to be fair. Some other countries have processes that are so regulated, and so discretionary, it is very difficult for an outsider to become a citizen. Rather a FO if you don’t share their heritage/ethnicity.

It’s definitely not a Western phenomenon. Plenty of westeners make belonging based on socially constructed racial categories. Even in settler states. Bizarrely.

But even if it were a western phenomenon? So? I am not convinced othering people based on skin tone is a good thing.

I think it shows that France does have a problem with integration, even though their football teams are awesome and they have won loads.

It's largely a Western phenomenon to give someone citizenship and then view them as somehow as much from/of that country as the natives, though.

I'm no blood-and-soil type and I'd absolutely view someone as English, Scottish or whatever if they were a couple of generations in and had fully integrated - but honestly communities that aren't well integrated, not so much.

It's largely a Western phenomenon to give someone citizenship and then view them as somehow as much from/of that country as the natives, though.

• what about people born in that country but with parents from another country?

It's largely a Western phenomenon to give someone citizenship and then view them as somehow as much from/of that country as the natives, though.

I'm no blood-and-soil type and I'd absolutely view someone as English, Scottish or whatever if they were a couple of generations in and had fully integrated - but honestly communities that aren't well integrated, not so much.

That shows that people of different ethnicities in France are doing different things which is not good for integration. Other European teams have a better mix.

• I don't know much about football but that does sound worrying if that's the case.

I have to say, I do think it's lovely that you're offended on my/other immigrant's behalf. However, I personally think racism is intent, not words used. Actions, not semantics. It's not like anyone is having a go at women of certain races is it? In fact, there's solidarity.

On the flip side, Haaland was born in the UK as his father was playing football there but went back to Norway after only three years so in addition to having Norwegian parents he was raised and spent the bulk of his childhood in Norway. Hence it makes sense he chose to play for Norway.

Its entirely possible, if his father had stayed for longer in England and he'd grown up here he might have chosen differently (although maybe not. I guess there was also his father's legacy to uphold). But if he had would people really be saying that even though he was born and brought up in England he would always be Nordic and never English? Ah, what might have been. But having Haaland and Bellingham on the England squad would have been awesome.

It's an interesting question. I think it's mainly about integration. The French team can be seen as French because they are integrated into French culture as well as being born in France.

Although I think it's concerning that although France is 78% white, almost all of their team are black or Arab. That shows that people of different ethnicities in France are doing different things which is not good for integration. Other European teams have a better mix.

I’ve been to Morocco twice, once in the 90s, once in 2024,

I didn’t experience this either time but count myself very lucky as there was always the feeling that it could happen.

On the flip side, Haaland was born in the UK as his father was playing football there but went back to Norway after only three years so in addition to having Norwegian parents he was raised and spent the bulk of his childhood in Norway. Hence it makes sense he chose to play for Norway.

Its entirely possible, if his father had stayed for longer in England and he'd grown up here he might have chosen differently (although maybe not. I guess there was also his father's legacy to uphold). But if he had would people really be saying that even though he was born and brought up in England he would always be Nordic and never English? Ah, what might have been. But having Haaland and Bellingham on the England squad would have been awesome.

Its weird how teams like Argentina will say that/have fans saying that, but with 0 awareness that, if held to the same standards, there would be no Argentinian team at all. Pretty much all of them not being of indigenous South American blood. Which then rather raises the question of why European descendants in the Argentinian team get to be Argentinian, but African descendants in the French team don't (despite usually being born and raised in France to parents who were raised in France). Fairly certain the answer is racism.
It's not the only thing wrong with the ethnonationalist approach to football teams. But it's a glaring inconsistency.

I have come across examples of white people born in the Middle East who integrated into the culture from birth (rather than living temporarily as expats) and were accepted as citizens of those particular countries.

Overall though, I think the ME is a poor example, since ethnic conflict is common there, as well as other kinds, so it's unsurprising kids with foreign born parents are less likely to be accepted.

My own example would be my godmother. Born & raised in London but both parents Polish refugees. Should she not be able to call herself British? She certainly still has connections to Polish culture but it would feel bizarre to say she is 'not British' or 'more Polish than British ' .

I was also thinking if by this argument icons of French culture like Charles Aznavour, Isabelle Adjani and Yves Montand are 'not French'. None had French parents : Aznavour's were Armenian refugees, Adjani is German-Arab Algerian, and Montand's were Italian.