India – loved it, but I came back feeling so violated.

And we’re importing them here!
Yeah right our Government had our backs!

Will it take us women to wear black diaphanous garbs for protection ?

OP whilst what happened to you in India wasn’t your fault it’s sad that you actively chose to put your DD in harms way by taking her out alone to a busy area. I hope she is okay now after what she witnessed.

Define norm...

Turkey (I guess that's partly Middle Eastern partly European technically) is a really lovely country with great people. But there are also issues with swxual harassment within places like Istanbul. That doesn't make it "the norm" in the sense that all Turkish people think this is Ok at all. But creepy Turkish men exist. I know someone who is Polish and had a very difficult time there because the assumption was that Polish/Russian women were prostitutes. Worse, the actual brothel area in Istanbul is very old and very accepted. A lot of the women working in this industry are from Eastern Europe and a lot of them are tricked into coming into Turkey for cleaning jobsnetc and then held prisoner by criminal gangs. The police are quite corrupt in that regard and not only turn a blind eye but actively assist the traffickers. Hence often very young women are held captive forced to have sex all day everyday sometimes several an hour. Usually there is an idea they have acrued a debt to the traffickers but this debt is never paid of. The rate of sex worker usage amongst Turkish men is quite high and it appears to be quite accepted. I don't think any of them are concerned about "groping" or "harassing" the women they pay for.

In other parts of the ME, including the Gulf States and places like Lebanon workers from overseas, often Africa, are at huge risk of sexual exploitation with little recourse if they are raped by their employer. In some cases race plays a part because black Africans are seen as less worthy than Arabs by some of the locals. In the Gulf States maids that are raped/pregnant can also be punished for adultery. Overall the treatment of a lowly paid foreigner of maid status is different to the treatment of women deemed deserving of respect.

Note that sex tourism and the use of sex trafficked women by gross men also happens in Europe. Lots of British men on stag dos in Amsterdam for example. And I don't think they are any more concerned than Turkish men about the willingness of the women working. And the film Whistleblower (horrific) details the sexual exploitation of mostly Romanian children by private security workers in Bosnia. Most of the men were from Canada. This isn't just a"Muslim man" thing. But the disbelief of "Muslims in the Middle East wouldn't act like that, it's not part of our culture" is a problem because actually almost all cultures have people they deem less worthy of protection than others. Some countries might have higher rates of sexual violence for sure. But a Middle Eastern Muslim, or a British person saying "how shocking Indian culture is. Our men wouldn't do such a thing and if they did other people would censure them for sure" are missing the fact that in some contexts nice family men would indeed harass women (and worse) and that this can be normalised by the people around them. You wouldn't necessarily notice this, if you were deemed the type of woman it's not OK to assault. Saying it's against Muslim religious laws (or British culture) doesn't mean that much.in itself.

Unless people have actually visited places like India or other countries with huge cultural differences in their attitudes to women they will never understand how truly abysmal they treat women.

But where in the ME is this kind of behaviour the norm. None of the countries people have mentioned are Middle Eastern. Pakistan, Turkey, North African countries aren’t Middle eastern.

Middle East or North Africa?

It was the 60s.. and you are relaying your mum's story. I am just saying if you look at the facts then your mum was incredibly lucky to not experience assault. I am glad she enjoyed it.

But facts are facts you are not safe going out in some spaces in India as a single woman 60 years after your mum went.

It's just facts.

They have women only carriages for a reason.

Yes they have them in India.

Exactly what I was going to say.

Africa is a continent. Talking about it as if it’s a country makes zero sense.

I know plenty of people who have visited Accra with no issue and would feel fine visiting alone. I have been in Jo’Burg alone for work with zero experience of sexual harassment. And that’s only two cities in two countries.

Well they must. As there isn’t a known issue with sexual harassment and British-Indian (Sikh/Hindu) men.

I thought the women only carriages were in Japan not India.

Yes, I know, the stories on this thread are horrendous. My DM was an unchaperoned single woman traveling across India in 1961. What has changed for women in the meantime - why are things so much worse?

It’s not just Western women. India is known for it’s horrendous problem with sexual violence against women and girls.

The photo taking is more likely because due to you being Western / White. Depending on ethnicity / country being visited this can be a common experience. I had this constantly in China and Russia and yes it’s uncomfortable and intrusive.

This is not even comparable to a young woman travelling alone nowadays.

My work involves travel to India and I am never left alone. There are always male colleagues and chaperones. Also very lucky to do it in a "safe" way. But I have seen the poverty and it's stark.

More to point our female colleagues are given taxis home. They actually see it as a benefit.

My Australian DM traveled through India for two months alone when she was 22, in 1961. She had been obsessed with India from childhood. She knew no-one, but was very frequently approached by young women and offered accommodation with their families, which she always accepted. Otherwise she stayed in women's dormitory accommodation. She was never approached by a man inappropriately. It was extremely unusual for a lone woman to be traveling at this time, and she was treated as a sort of celebrity? With incredible kindness and hospitality. Really, anything could have happened to her, but absolutely nothing did.

It shouldn't but I think it does. Travellers in India often advised to dress conservatively to minimise risk of these issues.

Perpetrator absolutely responsible and walking around non conservatively dressed wouldn't ever justify perpetrators actions, however, travellers can still make practical choices to reduce known risk.

You can argue all day about what people's attitudes should be, but when visiting a country you have to deal with it as it is, not as you'd like it to be.

I found the attention and harassment in India overwhelmingly at times it was constant q

I had read/heard other women’s accounts and though I didn’t take their accounts lightly I was still shocked at how relentless it was

yes we are harassed here but it’s nit acceptable in a way it is there particularly if you are from the west

There was a scandal a while back where one of the posh members clubs (not the rotary I think) only dinner events basically became a grope fest for the waitresses serving there. It had been a problem for years so a journalist went undercover and the men were treating the (just trying to do their job) waitresses as though they were hired sex workers for the evening.
A lot of the "gentlemen's clubs" that count their history back to the 18th century would have been places where men could go where their wives weren't and at times prostitution etc was facilitated. That's why they were gentlemen only. In more recent times you still have wealthy circles of men abusing women and children but they do it on islands.

None of that excuses the behaviour of men in India. But unfortunately some men, from all cultures, will apparently if they.feel.free of consequences and if they feel they have moral permission act horribly. In India, the men clearly felt free of consequences to grope women on the street and presumably justify this by her being Western/improperly dressed/loose/out alone and therefore undeserving of respect. In the UK (fortunately) walking down the street in jeans doesn't put you in the "wrong type of women" box. But in the situation I described the (mostly white British) men felt very entitled to grope and harass the waitresses in front of all the other men and turn it into a sport..either because them paying money bought permission in their eyes, or because by agreeing to waitress the young women had signed up to that behaviour,.or because they were rich and the women poor.

The only way to prevent it is to ensure consequences always for all men who abuse any woman. And no exemption clauses. That isn't me hating my own culture, it's just pragmatism.

Do you think it's disrespectful when you see women in burqas here?

Do you think they should respect our culture and jettison them?

Or do you think that respecting other cultures is a one way street?

If so, why so?

Islam also, I believe, forbids cheating other people. However, I suspect even locals in the Middle East count their change leaving shops. Certainly I don't think every taxi driver in Egypt is completely honest.
For it's part Christianity is also very big on love thy neighbour and not killing. But the crusades and religious wars still happened.

Basically, there's what religion tells people and how the followers of those religions act. I dont think there is anything in Islam that makes men want to commit harassment (or Christianity for that matter). But that doesn't mean I'm going to assume because a man is a (Middle Eastern) Muslim he is going to act respectfully. Add in a lot of men (from all cultures) treat "out-groups" different to "in-groups" and just because one woman found the behaviour of men in the Middle East respectful, it doesn't mean they always are. Eg, pretty much all ME and Muslim countries have brothels. So some men are happy to do things they shouldn't with at least some groups of (often unconsenting) women. (This is completely true of other parts of the world, including England. I don't want you to think I am singling out the ME.)

IKR? Must be our magic soil.

Sexual violence is a huge problem for Indian women. In rural areas where there are no toilets, girls can get raped on their way into the fields. There's a horrific rape and murder case in the news at the moment - an 11 year old girl was gang raped, stuffed into a sack while still alive and thrown into a pond. There have been riots over it, and a couple of men have been killed. Then there was that recent case of a woman doctor who was sexually tortured, raped and killed at the college where she was the resident doctor. The college initially told her family she'd committed suicide. There were protests.
In places like Turkey, Morocco and Egypt, there seems to be a belief that all white women are (free) prostitutes, and they treat you accordingly if they get the chance.
I remember reading that Egypt has got worse for women over recent years. During the protests of the Arab Spring, some female protestors were raped.

It happens in London too you say OP.

Yes, groups of Rotary Club members-gammons as often referred to on Mumsnet-coming up to you in broad daylight and grabbing your breasts.

That's so is it?

Why do you feel you can't make a negative remark about another culture without first denigrating your own?

That seems to be the way now-want to say something true and negative about another land or culture? Well, the only way it might be allowed is if you get it in somewhere that your own culture is just as bad and probably worse.

Laughable and quickly becoming a cliche.