To think this is the most awful thing to say to a parent

So you say “absolutely” about having it forced on you then immediately say you’d have to administer it yourself. You get that you’d probably refuse, right? Someone says “Deirdre, these 2 drinks will kill you so drink up” and you refuse and they say “but 10 years ago you said this is what you wanted” and you say “I don’t now” or “no I didn’t” or “why are you trying to kill me?”. Then what?

But presumably the point of the drinks is that they require consent in the moment, as they can't just be poured down someone's throat? I was actually thinking that sounded like a useful detail as far as preventing coercion is concerned.

But you can't always tell just from outward appearances whether someone 'isn't really living', which is why some people need protection from others trying to make the decision for them.

Thanks for clarifying, I wasn't sure if you were referring to posters on the thread.

That’s highly unlikely, isn’t it? Anyway it’s not legal in this country so it’s a moot point. As things stand I’m going to have to off myself while I still have capacity if I get a dementia diagnosis.

When they’re actively sitting there telling you they don’t want it - don’t be daft !!

If someone has made it clear assisted suicide was their choice in the event of dementia when of sound mind, it would be difficult to make a case for it not to be in their best interests.

A bit harsh sounding, but it's new territory to navigate, this extension of life by medical and societal advances, that isn't really living.

Absolutely this. My mum spent a couple of weeks on a geriatric ward after a fall and there was one particular woman who used to approach everyone who came onto the ward and ask them to please help her as she couldn’t find her way home. Pain isn’t always physical.

I doubt it would be legal to administer those two drinks for them to pick up and consume if they are not of sound mind and able to give informed consent at the time. Even an advance directive as part of an LPA allows for consent to be fluid and demands that the attorney act in the best interests of the donor, and involve them as much as possible in any decision being taken on their behalf.

That’s not a valid comparison. A will and an advance directive are both legal written documents which specify the person signing them is of sound mind.

Assisted suicide is a voluntary act which requires the person involved to pick up and consume two lethal drinks. It would certainly be murder if any other method was involved.

Really? Tell that to the woman in the care home my MIL ended up in.

Sitting in a chair for hours on end in the day room with a carer holding her hand and whimpering "help me help me". It was heart breaking to listen to. No one could break through to find out what her mind was torturing her with.

Where does that end?

If you’re out with a bloke and tell him you want to have sex tonight and then you get drunk should he have the right to have sex with you regardless because you consented when you had the capacity to do so?

I think they would call that rape.

By the same token, if you’re no longer able to consent to being killed and they hold you down and do it anyway, I think you’ll find that’s murder.

Because if you are at that stage of the disease you can't travel, eat or be deemed to have capacity. A private clinic may do if you pay in advance and they have doctors who will travel to you and actually administer. I would 100% bet it would be so expensive that no-one, certainly HD positive would be able to afford it. No doubt any private provider would also put the cost up at point of delivery, leaving family members....who may have HD themselves, unable to pay, ensuring more guilt of not being able to help their loved one's.

I didn’t mean you. I mean the small number of members of the House of Lords who have taken it off the table for everyone, despite MPs voting for it. It’s a travesty of democracy.

Please be fair. A lot of us are not flat out opposing it, but we are entitled to our concern for the possible ramifications.

I often wished my DM could be like one old lady at her care home, who happily told me virtually every time I visited, that her mum and dad and gran and granddad were coming soon, and they were all going to the seaside together.

Alas there was no sunlit childhood idyll for my poor mother, who was so often worried, fretful, or frightened of things she couldn’t even name.
‘I’m frightened!
‘Oh, dear - what are you frightened of?’
’I don’t know…’ 😰

Or like the other poor old late 80s lady, who was so often in tears because she needed to get home for ‘the baby’, or because her mother wouldn’t know where she was, and would be so worried. The staff were always very kind, and did their best to reassure her, but nothing worked for long.

I wouldn’t force anyone else to do anything. My views apply personally only to me. I’m not forcing them on anyone else. Unlike opponents of assisted dying.

I think we have to agree to disagree. You really would force euthanasia on someone protesting that they don’t want it, just because they had once opted for it at a different time of their lives, when they couldn’t possibly have predicted how they would feel if it actually happened ?

Sorry. But I have had very first hand experience of nursing my mum through vascular dementia at home and she was far from floating around in ‘her little bubble’. She was diagnosed well before she lost capacity and knew what was going to happen. That realisation fundamentally changed her.

The mid to end stages last a couple of years and get progressively worse. She had periods of crystal clear lucidity in which I witnessed a fear in her eyes that will stay with me for the rest of my life - not least because no amount of reassurance could take it away.

And she was in pain. The last year resulted in excruciating headaches associated with bleeds to the brain. She had muscle spasms that would force her into the foetal position with knees drawn up to her chest and hands clenched so tight that nail marks in her palms would bleed. Please don’t comment on things you clearly know very little about. Some of us have lived it.

The principle is exactly the same. Both are decisions which should only be taken when of sound mind with any change ignored when mental capacity changes.

There’s a world of difference between expressing a desire to change your will and expressing the desire not to die.

Agree.

I think the relevant point here is that the end stages of dementia, regardless of the cause, are universally awful. My mum was relatively fine during the first few years after her diagnosis. The loss of mental capacity in the last couple of years was rapid, and accompanied by other symptoms, including periods of lucidity in which she recognised her predicament and was truly terrified. I watched my mum cry like a newborn for what she had lost and what she perceived she was putting myself and the rest of our family through - my only comfort is that these periods were mercifully brief.

By the end she was slave to her OCD like symptoms, and experiencing excruciating muscle spasms the like of which I have never seen. What I witnessed in the last two years of her life I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy.

That said, I remain totally opposed to any kind of assisted dying bill, simply because after a lot of years on this planet, I’ve come to the conclusion that human beings are not to be trusted. That’s not a criticism. It’s simply a nod to the human condition.

Dementia takes many forms and even if we get a diagnosis in time to do much about it, we still don't know exactly how it will affect us, or our loved ones.
My relationship with my late DM wasn’t great, she could be difficult (full disclosure, me too) and we struggled a bit, but did our best.
After the dementia took hold she changed such a lot, became the sweetest (but dottiest) old lady you could imagine. It was still frustrating to deal with at times because she still forgot anything and everything.
She'd say to me ‘We’ve been such good friends for a long time now, haven’t we?’ And I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry.