Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that NT children miss out in school inclusion policies.

288 replies

empee47 · 06/07/2026 16:45

To think that inclusion policies in primary schools are almost never geared to helping academic, NT children get the best out of their education? They’re almost always designed to help the underdog - not denying this is necessary - but those at the top end of the spectrum don’t get the chance to shine as bright as they might otherwise do.

OP posts:
SleepingStandingUp · 06/07/2026 20:38

Thechaseison71 · 06/07/2026 20:28

But I'm not talking about send kids am I? I'm saying the bright kids were left to drift even back in the 70s when I was young so the hot the ess bright to learn something

If disruptive SEND kids weren't in a regular class everyone could learn better

Edited

what about disruptive none SEND kids? why is it only kids with SEN you want away from your kids?

C0dename · 06/07/2026 20:38

Thechaseison71 · 06/07/2026 20:28

But I'm not talking about send kids am I? I'm saying the bright kids were left to drift even back in the 70s when I was young so the hot the ess bright to learn something

If disruptive SEND kids weren't in a regular class everyone could learn better

Edited

Many non SEND kids are disruptive, many SEND kids are not disruptive .

SleepingStandingUp · 06/07/2026 20:36

Sylviaplathlives · 06/07/2026 18:31

Perhaps she is miffed her child won’t reach their academic potential because of the lack of resources due to the amount of time effort and focus taken and directed to a handful of children that absolutely should not be in mainstream but due to the way successive governments have stripped back specialist provision, they now monopolise teaching time. It’s not fair on the child with SEN, the other kids or teachers.

ad, those other students aren't necessarily ones with significant need. We've had using different coloured paper for a child with dyslexia mentioned. We've had kids who need to move around occasionally listed. kids who stim or struggle with noise. you think they would get their best chance in a specialist school which is wtargeted at kids with significantly higher needs, or you want a third type of school for any kid who doesn't fit perfectly into your square hole? has your kid never needed extra support eith any aspect of education? would you be ok with them being told "no, you either work at this level without help or fail?

Yogafiend · 06/07/2026 20:32

Jumbaree · 06/07/2026 20:12

Why? If you have a child that willing to learn and you send them to school, shouldn’t they be taught there? Is that not what school is for? Instead they twiddle their thiumbs while the teacher tries to stop Jaxxon from throwing his table across the room, Da’rci from swearing at everyone and Rylee from jumping on everyone’s models.

I agree with you - and in an ideal world that’s how it should be - all kids having their needs met but the reality is there is no capacity (at least not in the borough I used to live). The TA tend to deal with the situations you mention. So it’s up to us parents to find a solution for our kids.

Thechaseison71 · 06/07/2026 20:28

C0dename · 06/07/2026 20:26

SEND children are taken out for interventions .

But I'm not talking about send kids am I? I'm saying the bright kids were left to drift even back in the 70s when I was young so the hot the ess bright to learn something

If disruptive SEND kids weren't in a regular class everyone could learn better

C0dename · 06/07/2026 20:26

Thechaseison71 · 06/07/2026 20:24

But the writing should be done in class. Not removed from assembly so they miss out on that

I still remember my own infant school ( back in the days then the majority of kids with sen went to special schools)
It was " you sit in the reading corner while the rest of the class does this" or " you fetch the milk in while the rest of the class learns times tables".
Surely by that reasoning I was being " othered"

Edited

SEND children are taken out for interventions .

Thechaseison71 · 06/07/2026 20:24

DillyDallyingAllDay · 06/07/2026 19:24

Actually I think you’re wrong. The more academically able children might not benefit from ‘inclusion’ policies but schools do stretch and do extra things for the most able. I know of one school where some children are taken out of assemblies once a week to stretch their writing skills

But the writing should be done in class. Not removed from assembly so they miss out on that

I still remember my own infant school ( back in the days then the majority of kids with sen went to special schools)
It was " you sit in the reading corner while the rest of the class does this" or " you fetch the milk in while the rest of the class learns times tables".
Surely by that reasoning I was being " othered"

mintleavesandthyme · 06/07/2026 20:23

HereIsWhatIKnow · 06/07/2026 19:40

So....
Many moons ago, you had statements and you could have many statemented students in one group. Expectations at secondary might have been lower (e.g certificate of achievement or St. Martin's rather than a GCSE) but there was also emphasis on key and core skills.
You had a gifted and talented cohort.
You had Section 11 for English as an additional language.
You had Beacon schools and schools with specialist subjects.
You had positive and negative residuals you had to defend and year 9 SATs that set expectations for GCSE. You had setting.
You also had Special Schools and in some schools Bases (e.g. for ASC where students could nip in and out of mainstream).

Now you have EHCPs that are gate kept, like golddust and are not always followed/upheld.
Many Special Schools closed, CAHMs is not fit for purpose, pathways are full/taking forever and PRUs are full.

Primary schools are Watch and Wait/Quality Teaching First.
Secondary is all Adaptive teaching. Teach to the top. Scaffold down.
Little setting as creates sink sets and mixed ability is supposedly more inclusive. Nurture groups gone as allegedly do not stretch enough. Gifted/talented gone, instead it is interventions after school and extra curricular/electives.
Work experience being replaced by workshops and visits.
LSAs doing interventions separately but "general" support in class, not allowed to sit with more challenging students anymore within the classroom itself.

Adaptive teaching is what was once known as Differentiation. By task or by outcome. Primary it used to be different table colours and tasks. Secondary it was often finished this, do more of that.

The gap now in a mixed ability class would shock most of you. You have a lesson they are all meant to follow as part of levelling up when you have some who can write three sides and some can barely write three lines. The amount of undiagnosed and diagnosed SEN has rocketed.

Biggest driver is often ADHD and unmedicated ADHD which causes the most disruption. Some ASC are dysregulated by the constant low level disruptions, others with sensory overload by the noise of fidgets, blutac given to soothe is often flung around, teachers are asked to make more allowances for those who cannot self-regulate and those in the middle - neither high nor low academically - sit there thinking what is the point of them/are they invisible.

Job is to protect all children's learning but we have neither the money nor the tools nor the space nor the support as we are being asked to provide for such differences in need within one group in one setting - with the mantra if you get it right for SEND you are getting it right for everyone. But it is one size fits all, throw the glue all over them all at the same time and see how much sticks. You are told to chunk, told to scaffold but not dumb down, emphasis on challenging them.

It is an impossible task right now.
Nurturing groups worked.
Separate wings/bases worked.
LSAs sitting alongside students worked.
But we keep being told facilitate do not enable, don't have them rely on you, promote independence.

Some of the kids your heart bleeds for.
Because they are docile/quiet, perceived to be "good" and having their lessons sabotaged on a daily basis. This is NT and ND kids to be clear.
And they see others not being held to the same standards behaviour wise or they'd be exited within minutes without inbuilt extra chances. They neither get treated for high flying nor forest school/time out for struggling. And the mantra is that ALL kids' education is important. Yet it often feels like Animal Farm and not just because some pupils are feral/act like they are in a zoo (again NT, not just what we used to label EBD) "All animals are equal but some are more equal than others."

It is happening all over the country in schools down your street - some pupils choose to misbehave, others cannot cope or access the curriculum, others are surviving/trying to grey rock/block out the sounds, others are bystanders rather than upstanders.

It is painful and why so many teachers are leaving, changing careers or retiring earlier than planned. Because you can work tirelessly but are more often than not banging your head against the wall with the added salt of parents not backing you. Any critics please do train, do it yourself, you'll find - just like homeschooling in COVID showed - that it is a lot more challenging than you'd like to believe.

Thank you for this info, it’s interesting and depressing at the same time

C0dename · 06/07/2026 20:22

Jumbaree · 06/07/2026 20:12

Why? If you have a child that willing to learn and you send them to school, shouldn’t they be taught there? Is that not what school is for? Instead they twiddle their thiumbs while the teacher tries to stop Jaxxon from throwing his table across the room, Da’rci from swearing at everyone and Rylee from jumping on everyone’s models.

TAs are dealing with all that- on a minimum wage!

Jumbaree · 06/07/2026 20:12

Yogafiend · 06/07/2026 20:03

Speaking from the perspective of academic children - it’s up to you as the parent to push them. You either send them to private school, or do tutoring or do tutoring at home yourself. I know it can be super frustrating if that’s your choline, but we can’t afford to have children in state school falling further through the cracks in my experience.

Why? If you have a child that willing to learn and you send them to school, shouldn’t they be taught there? Is that not what school is for? Instead they twiddle their thiumbs while the teacher tries to stop Jaxxon from throwing his table across the room, Da’rci from swearing at everyone and Rylee from jumping on everyone’s models.

C0dename · 06/07/2026 20:08

MandemChickenShop · 06/07/2026 19:58

I said most. Your child's incredible academic achievement doesn't rebuke the general point. There are always exceptions. Your argument is akin to saying there's no racism in the UK because Rishi Sunak was prime minister.

Anyway it's not just my opinion - it's the conclusion of detailed research from the Sutton Trust and Ofsted

Did you not read my post, it’s not exceptions. The vast majority of students at the top unis are from state schools.Private schools are over represented for a variety of reasons but the vast majority of students are state pupils .

Jumbaree · 06/07/2026 20:07

ToBali · 06/07/2026 18:44

Can you give some specific examples of what inclusion policies you disagree with and what it is that you think is lacking? I think there is such a wide range of things, SEND, Neuro diversity, disabilities, behavioural support, well being, different ability levels, all being discussed, covering such a wide range of situations that we need specifics.

To me, inclusion isn't about kids reaching their full potential, that's a parents job, but it is about them being able to access the curriculum that is being provided.

Do you disagree with a school being wheelchair accessible? Can a child with vision issues be given a worksheet in a larger font or sat near the front of the class? What about a child who lost their hearing due to meningitis, can they be given support to catch up with phonics? If a child is severely dyslexic but otherwise academically able can they have support to read a maths worksheet? Is a TA being trained in administering an epi pen a waste of time? If your child broke their arm the day before their GCSE exams would you expect them to be given a scribe?

You’re being facetious. Children listed above don’t have impact on the learning of the other children. They aren’t forcing other children to cower in fear. They aren’t ripping up : destroying classmates work. They aren’t forcing teachers to evacuate classrooms. We’re taking about violent and disruptive children who do nothing but destroy the learning opportunities of other children.

C0dename · 06/07/2026 20:04

Yogafiend · 06/07/2026 20:03

Speaking from the perspective of academic children - it’s up to you as the parent to push them. You either send them to private school, or do tutoring or do tutoring at home yourself. I know it can be super frustrating if that’s your choline, but we can’t afford to have children in state school falling further through the cracks in my experience.

Many bright state kids get into the top unis without tutoring.

Yogafiend · 06/07/2026 20:03

Speaking from the perspective of academic children - it’s up to you as the parent to push them. You either send them to private school, or do tutoring or do tutoring at home yourself. I know it can be super frustrating if that’s your choline, but we can’t afford to have children in state school falling further through the cracks in my experience.

C0dename · 06/07/2026 20:00

LejlaKapovic · 06/07/2026 19:36

The same could be said about parents of neurodiverse kids. Why can't they do it in their own time? Maybe parents of neurotypical and gifted children don't have the capacity to give their children the extra push that they need to unlock their kids' full potential.

All children deserve to receive the appropriate schooling and attention. Including neurotypical and gifted children. OP is right that these groups are often not academically nurtured enough, and that kids with challenges often take up a lot of space and attention in the classroom.

Extra push for what? The majority of students in the top unis are state kids.

MandemChickenShop · 06/07/2026 19:58

PoppyseedPurple · 06/07/2026 18:45

Nonsense - my DC got 14 x grade 9s in a “good” comprehensive school and 4 x A* + EPQ in a state sixth form. Excellent teachers throughout. Also, high achievers raise the Progress 8 score so there is an incentive to stretch more able pupils.

Andy Burnham went to state schools and looks likely to be the next PM.

I said most. Your child's incredible academic achievement doesn't rebuke the general point. There are always exceptions. Your argument is akin to saying there's no racism in the UK because Rishi Sunak was prime minister.

Anyway it's not just my opinion - it's the conclusion of detailed research from the Sutton Trust and Ofsted

Jumbaree · 06/07/2026 19:48

Positivepositron · 06/07/2026 18:12

I don't think you seem to understand the purpose of an inclusion policy if you think it should include stretching the most able pupils.
Your issue actually seems to be that you don't think children with SEN should be in mainstream. However if there were special school places for all children with SEN who are currently in mainstream the cost would be incredibly high and there would be even less money for mainstream.
Obviously they haven't got the support right for SEN pupils currently, but including fewer pupils in mainstream wouldn't then magically allow more resources to be spent om gifted pupils.

Gifted pupils don’t need more resources spent on them. They simply need a quiet, calm environment to crack on with learning. They absolutely do not have that just now in state schools here so no one learns anything. No one wins from that. School is for learning and no one is learning anything.

MyEasterBonnet · 06/07/2026 19:47

I think it depends on context. I work in a school and I find that they’re so focused on inclusion of send students, that it can be detrimental to the majority of the class.

HereIsWhatIKnow · 06/07/2026 19:40

So....
Many moons ago, you had statements and you could have many statemented students in one group. Expectations at secondary might have been lower (e.g certificate of achievement or St. Martin's rather than a GCSE) but there was also emphasis on key and core skills.
You had a gifted and talented cohort.
You had Section 11 for English as an additional language.
You had Beacon schools and schools with specialist subjects.
You had positive and negative residuals you had to defend and year 9 SATs that set expectations for GCSE. You had setting.
You also had Special Schools and in some schools Bases (e.g. for ASC where students could nip in and out of mainstream).

Now you have EHCPs that are gate kept, like golddust and are not always followed/upheld.
Many Special Schools closed, CAHMs is not fit for purpose, pathways are full/taking forever and PRUs are full.

Primary schools are Watch and Wait/Quality Teaching First.
Secondary is all Adaptive teaching. Teach to the top. Scaffold down.
Little setting as creates sink sets and mixed ability is supposedly more inclusive. Nurture groups gone as allegedly do not stretch enough. Gifted/talented gone, instead it is interventions after school and extra curricular/electives.
Work experience being replaced by workshops and visits.
LSAs doing interventions separately but "general" support in class, not allowed to sit with more challenging students anymore within the classroom itself.

Adaptive teaching is what was once known as Differentiation. By task or by outcome. Primary it used to be different table colours and tasks. Secondary it was often finished this, do more of that.

The gap now in a mixed ability class would shock most of you. You have a lesson they are all meant to follow as part of levelling up when you have some who can write three sides and some can barely write three lines. The amount of undiagnosed and diagnosed SEN has rocketed.

Biggest driver is often ADHD and unmedicated ADHD which causes the most disruption. Some ASC are dysregulated by the constant low level disruptions, others with sensory overload by the noise of fidgets, blutac given to soothe is often flung around, teachers are asked to make more allowances for those who cannot self-regulate and those in the middle - neither high nor low academically - sit there thinking what is the point of them/are they invisible.

Job is to protect all children's learning but we have neither the money nor the tools nor the space nor the support as we are being asked to provide for such differences in need within one group in one setting - with the mantra if you get it right for SEND you are getting it right for everyone. But it is one size fits all, throw the glue all over them all at the same time and see how much sticks. You are told to chunk, told to scaffold but not dumb down, emphasis on challenging them.

It is an impossible task right now.
Nurturing groups worked.
Separate wings/bases worked.
LSAs sitting alongside students worked.
But we keep being told facilitate do not enable, don't have them rely on you, promote independence.

Some of the kids your heart bleeds for.
Because they are docile/quiet, perceived to be "good" and having their lessons sabotaged on a daily basis. This is NT and ND kids to be clear.
And they see others not being held to the same standards behaviour wise or they'd be exited within minutes without inbuilt extra chances. They neither get treated for high flying nor forest school/time out for struggling. And the mantra is that ALL kids' education is important. Yet it often feels like Animal Farm and not just because some pupils are feral/act like they are in a zoo (again NT, not just what we used to label EBD) "All animals are equal but some are more equal than others."

It is happening all over the country in schools down your street - some pupils choose to misbehave, others cannot cope or access the curriculum, others are surviving/trying to grey rock/block out the sounds, others are bystanders rather than upstanders.

It is painful and why so many teachers are leaving, changing careers or retiring earlier than planned. Because you can work tirelessly but are more often than not banging your head against the wall with the added salt of parents not backing you. Any critics please do train, do it yourself, you'll find - just like homeschooling in COVID showed - that it is a lot more challenging than you'd like to believe.

KettleHead87 · 06/07/2026 19:38

empee47 · 06/07/2026 19:19

I empathise with you and I fully agree. It’s almost a crime to be academically ambitious here!

That’s ridiculous, of course it isn’t ’almost a crime to be academically ambitious here’, what a load of absolute bullshit. Some people really do go through like wearing horse blinkers and only seeing the narrow slice of things the way they want to see them so that life can match the rhetoric they’ve invented in their head.

LejlaKapovic · 06/07/2026 19:36

BeigeCardigan · 06/07/2026 16:49

Well, that’s something that’s easy for parents to do in their own time with their child.

The same could be said about parents of neurodiverse kids. Why can't they do it in their own time? Maybe parents of neurotypical and gifted children don't have the capacity to give their children the extra push that they need to unlock their kids' full potential.

All children deserve to receive the appropriate schooling and attention. Including neurotypical and gifted children. OP is right that these groups are often not academically nurtured enough, and that kids with challenges often take up a lot of space and attention in the classroom.

KettleHead87 · 06/07/2026 19:36

Jumbaree · 06/07/2026 17:21

They have a legal duty to properly stretch gifted and talented children and my child’s state secondary had no interest in this whatsoever. There’s a reason why most PMs went to private school…

You think that it’s the amazing private school education that led them to be PM? You think that’s what they got out of private school, the education?! And it’s the incredible teaching that lead to them being PM?!

Okay….

BravasPatatas · 06/07/2026 19:30

Jumbaree · 06/07/2026 19:28

We need to fund these schools to be opened, obviously. There is no other option.

You didn’t answer all of the other questions in that post?

SnozPoz · 06/07/2026 19:30

You're suggesting that kids not neurotypical can't be at the top end of the academic spectrum. Careful there. I know plenty of ND people who are the brightest around. We've come a long way with this in the past 50 years... maybe it's too far for your liking but It's a vast improvement and our society is better for it.

babyursohellbent · 06/07/2026 19:30

Inclusive education has been a disaster for British education.