To think that NT children miss out in school inclusion policies.

Guilty! I don’t think children whose coping mechanism in mainstream school involves continually punching classmates ought to be ‘included’ in mainstream. So sue me!

This isn’t the case. The school’s function is set out in the education act. I cannot find the clause just now but schools need to meet the needs of every child, which includes gifted and talented children, who’s needs aren’t ’perform to average’.

My child has SEN and probably needs a 1-1. Highly suspect he won't have anyone when he starts school until they realise the level of disruption caused means they will have no choice.

Anyway another abeist thread about autistic kids. Why do you need inclusive policies if you don't have a ND child? Not that they are inclusive anyway.

Perhaps those "thugs" are ASD children with sensory overload hence the hitting? Funny how your sense of inclusion only goes for the ones like your child.

Of course my children don’t speak for everyone in my area. I was giving my experience with state primary school in England. I didn’t say all children were bored. I said my 2 eldest were. But I’m not arrogant enough to think that there aren’t other children that are academically very clever. My children aren’t unique in that sense. My eldest went into applying for grammar school and was successful. I don’t need to look at year 6 sats as my eldest 2 kids are now in secondary school. The contents of the SATS are high is relative to the child. My eldest is going into year 9 next year has been selected to do advanced program for maths, English and science where he will do year 9 and 10 curriculum in one year. It might be surprising but it happens. Out of my 3 kids is the most focused and academic and as I said before he wasn’t pushed enough and was bored - not because the teachers didn’t care but because they had no capacity. Classes are 30 kids. How can teachers be able to help those who need more support and push those who don’t?

Conversely, my best friend has a child with SEN and they weren’t the greatest either.

Why not? Selective v non selective.

But it shouldn't lump STATE grammar and private together. I said about STATE schools

The primary purpose of state funded education is not to help a minority shine. Its to give all children at least the basics they need to navigate and be useful members of society. That's what we pay our taxes for.
Within this, children who are particularly gifted academically will achieve this baseline with ease, children with additional challenges will struggle, so it makes sense to put linited resources where they're needed.
As parents there's plenty that can be done to help academically able children push through the ceiling of the state offer.

Did you not read it carefully. It had private&grammar together and compared with comprehensives.

Wonder how many of the good state kids were from grammar school where they won't put up with the disruption

Depends on the school is imagine. A nice comprehensive maybe, sink school not so much pushing and more crowd vobtrol

Honestly this is just the sort of dumb statement we see.

Children can struggle in school even when significantly gifted.

Any child, even a very academically able one, will struggle in a chaotic class, or one where the material is not being taught well, or where they are being left to teach it to themselves, or where the class is being regularly disrupted.

Kids can also become just massively bored and distanced from education, or develop poor work habits, because they are not given the opportunity to actually need to work or study regularly as the material is low level or the marks are inflated.

It's quite remarkable what happens when you take children out of classrooms like that and put them into one where it is calm, where the teacher can pay attention to the whole class, and where they are given work that is engaging and requires their engagement. Most people can't actually afford to go private though.

I think you've missed my point. I did say that I was not saying the situation was working particularly for kids with SEND.

I am saying schools feel a kind of obligation to at least attempt to address those issues - even if in practice it's totally ineffective - in a way they simply don't for other kids.

You can see it in the way you have kids in classes being negatively impacted by a child who is disruptive, even causing evacuation of the classroom multiple times a day. How is it acceptable that those kids are losing out on their education? Because the school has to provide a place for the disruptive child more than they have to provide a safe space, much less an education for all the others.

And it's been said straight out by multiple people on this thread alone that gifted children should get no consideration in school, there is no obligation to meet their educational needs. Parents are explicitly being told they should pay for private school (plus VAT) for those children.

It may not be working well for anyone but there has been a hierarchy created rather than saying the educational needs of all children need to be met.

When you work in a school all you hear is SEN, SEN, SEN. It's pretty much all that matters and takes up 80 odd percent of time and resources for 20 something percent of the children. It's nuts and I think explains why so many parents want their children classed as SEN. It's the only way for their child to be seen.

But if your child is struggling, I'd suggest they're not at the top end of the academic spectrum/range. Unfortunately there are parents who can't accept that their children aren't that academically bright, even though they probably excel in other areas, and want to blame the school, the teachers, other children etc.

And mine.
Sutton Trust and UCL research tells us that there is very little ( half a grade at most) difference in A level grades achieved by state Comprehensive schools' students and private/grammars' students of similar ability.

In fact comprehensive schools not only do much better for children of lower ability than Secondary Moderns they also produce students who do better than private at University and at post graduate level.

Of course private schools do not have to meet the qualification levels for teachers that state schools have eg qualified teacher status. Indeed many teachers have been leaving private schools as the latter have been exiting the Teachers' Pensions scheme ( to save money).

I didn’t mention abilities at all though did I? Any child for whatever reason takes up too much of a teachers time then they’re in the wrong place.

You could say that about all abilities. The reality is it’s TAs doing interventions not teachers.

The upshot is that you can’t rely on the state. You just can’t. Your child is your responsibility and you need to do whatever you can to help them achieve their potential - by providing support yourself or sourcing it in other ways. That’s the only way people succeed or reach potential- by taking it into their own hands.

My ND niece hasn’t sat an exam in any subject and got less than 90%. All she asks for is a calm classroom. When you include violent and disruptive children you exclude the likes of her (and the rest of the class) from learning. Why? Why do it? What is the point in harming every learners progress just do you can boast smug platitudes about how ‘inclusive’ (group hug!) you are. It’s farcical.

But an NT child (and btw many ND pupils are also academically gifted) can already be included in education without adaptations.

An inclusion policy is about how to include those with diverse needs.

I think you’re asking about gifted and talented policies which are different - and yes those who are academically above average should be pushed to achieve their best. But that could also include a pupil who has SEND too - my ds was a gifted scientist and programmer in a wheelchair. He needed the environment adapted and also access to higher level teaching.

If in a class of 30 there is any child that needs more than say 20% of a teachers time they shouldn’t be there. It’s unfair on the other children.

What an unpleasant view. Diversity and inclusion should be promoted in practice - not just as buzzwords - across the board, not just in education.

How can schools be held accountable by parents of children, who have SEN, but no EHC plan and in reality get no SEN support?

Parents can a formal complaint to the governors, for not using their best endeavours; and the governors can effectively ignore them. Then what can parents do really? Complaints to the Local Government Ombudsman take a long time, and the remedies go nowhere to make up for the child’s loss of education for years.

A claim of disability discrimination to the SEND tribunal achieves nothing. Apparently hearing dates now are being given for the end of next year. It’s very stressful for the parents and even if they win, at best, they’ll get an apology from the school; but the relationship with the school will have been destroyed. The parents will have to find a new school, with no guarantee, it will be any better.

This is why parents apply for EHC plan needs assessments; but LAs’ default position is to refuse the first time. Parents have to appeal to the SEN tribunal, which as above will take 18 months. Assuming the parents win, the EHC plan won’t be worth the paper it’s written on, when it’s issued. The parents will have to appeal to the tribunal again over the needs and provisions, or rather the lack of them in the EHC plan - which will take the parents another 18 months, stress and money on independent professional reports.

LAs flout SEN law every day on a massive scale, and the government does nothing to police them, because it comes down to lack of funding by the government. It’s left to individual parents to police them. Few parents (probably less than 10%) have the wherewithal, the stamina and money to fight for three years to get their children with SEN what they need in school - which is what LAs rely on to save money! Meanwhile, the children are left to struggle for another three years in school, on top of what has already been wasted, until the parents realise their child is having difficulty.

So the idea, children with SEN have legal rights and accountability in schools, which gives them an advantage over gifted and talented children is an empty promise at best, probably for 90% of them. It’s like the emperor’s new clothes!