To think that NT children miss out in school inclusion policies.

Or maybe, just maybe, it was all just a pile of bllx and it won’t materialise and it’s just resulted in yet more pressure on the state system. As predicted. Hmmm

Well said!

I thought the VAT from private school fees was to be pumped into state education, has this not been felt or maybe delivered yet?

In mainstream, inclusion means - you deal with it “quality first teaching” will fix everything. It’s not realistic at all. Not fair on SEN children, NT children or staff.

Yes, I do. But like a PP said, we have a single pair of hands. Zero additional resources or adults. If a violent or disregulated child takes up my time as the class teacher, realistically what do you think happens?

It all depends like an extremely aggressive child who isn’t suitable for mainstream is one thing. But I wouldn’t want my child getting more attention at the expense of SEN children in general being othered and pushed out of mainstream. To me that’s just selfish and ridiculous.

I’m a veteran teacher (yup, remember teaching in the halcyon days of the 90s) and a big concern has always been how children with behavioural issues -that may stem from an unmet need or not - always seem to take the majority of resources. It’s not just the GnT kids who then suffer but the average kid who needs a quiet room and time with the teacher to learn.

Schools do their very best but the needs in schools now are so huge that it’s an impossible job.

My answer would be to establish more alternative provision schools for those children who have difficulties being in a regular school environment. There should
also be more TAs in every school to support the children who can cope in a mainstream school but need the extra boost (of any level
of ability).

However, this all costs millions that we know the government doesn’t have.

ALL children deserve a good education but I think many do not receive this and that’s a
crime.

Absolute rubbish. Provision and curriculum is very much geared to standard and above hence children with SEND needing support.You do realise we’re talking about children with SEND and not all children with SEND are ND.

I don’t think you understand what inclusion means

You are correct OP. So much time and money goes into inclusion that NT children that meet “standard” are not typically pushed, stretched or catered to. As a teacher, I find it is the NT children that have come off worst because of this ridiculous notion that schools can be inclusive. Someone always loses.

I don’t necessarily think my kids miss out academically, DS is autistic but he’s relatively low support needs. What I do think is a problem is that some of the SEN children both their classes are physically aggressive. DD has no issue dealing with it, tbh she hit the kid back once and he moved on to an easier target, but DS had a really hard time with a boy in his class. It’s done now, he did eventually hit him back and he moved on to the next.

Also, I’m a maths tutor so I think I’m pretty equipped to help them academically and I do take a lot of time to ensure they’re ahead of where they should be.

I don't think you seem to understand the purpose of an inclusion policy if you think it should include stretching the most able pupils.
Your issue actually seems to be that you don't think children with SEN should be in mainstream. However if there were special school places for all children with SEN who are currently in mainstream the cost would be incredibly high and there would be even less money for mainstream.
Obviously they haven't got the support right for SEN pupils currently, but including fewer pupils in mainstream wouldn't then magically allow more resources to be spent om gifted pupils.

As a teacher I see this time and time again, I’m only 1 human, I have 1 pair of hands and I am physically unable to meet every single need of every single child. I have to help the weakest/ one having a meltdown/ badly behaved which generally leaves the G+T to fend for themselves. It’s not fair on them.
I worry about how we will compete as a country on an international playing field- our brightest kids are not pushed as much as they could be. Why do you think so many more kids from private schools end up at university and at oxbridge?
How will this affect our long term economic outlook? With so many kids needing accommodations- how many will be able to work?

Inclusion isn’t about shining and those at the top, without disabilities don’t need help.

@Iris2020 it is a choice to spend money on children with additional needs. I am sorry if you think that I’ve shouted anyone down on this thread. As a parent there is nothing that I can do to divert the money from my child with SEN to your child without. If it isn’t spent on my child it isn’t put back into the general funds for each child as you’ve said. Clearly most people think it shouldn’t be spent, or at least that children that aren’t neurotypical are removed from mainstream schools and we return to the policy of keeping those children well out of the way of others so there’s no way that your neurotypical child could be affected negatively by a child like mine.

It's always been the way that high achievers aren't supported in school, it has in state schools in my area anyway. My DS who's now 18 was one. I asked at primary if he could be given work from the year above and they said no. This was all before a lot more SEN children were put in mainstream. The only class that had a TA when my 18yo was in primary was Reception class. It was just teach to the level that would pass the standard test. I'm on the other side of it now with a SEN 5yo who's class has 2TAs.
If there isn't even enough funding for SEN children to achieve a basic level of education, where would we find the money to give extra support to high achievers? I'd prefer it goes where it is needed. Parents can support high achievers, there are plenty of online resources that a bright and focused child could easily use. Teaching SEN children is a lot more challenging and usually requires trained professionals.

Because that's not how state education works. The point is to educate the entire population to a level they can go out and contribute to society (when you boil it down). That means inclusion is needed for the kids who might not achieve this or might suffer discrimination in other ways. The point isn't to let every child fulfill their max potential, though of course it's a goal many schools do have.

Some have gifted and talented programmes for the very top.

But yeah if your kid is pretty top, not gifted and talented top but could be top with extra help... your options are tutoring (with a third party or just done yourself), enriching activities or private school.

@empee47 if they are very academic you can let them shine by sitting their 11+. If you feel they are not being educated to that level due to the primary school’s priority on ‘inclusion’ get a private tutor to prepare. Grammar secondary have high expectations of all kids, whether NT or ND to reach their full potential.

So work towards getting them into a better school to suit their academic ability.

Getting 9 or 10, grade 9 GCSEs is plenty for a 16 year old to begin a journey of shining bright

Just push them at home and research A’level places which want quite high entrance GCSE grades. Then they will get pushed just at the right time.

In the meantime give them lots of things that aren’t academic outside of school. Just for enjoyment.

My phone is playing up but I was trying to say they get objectively numerically scored on behaviour in secondary and she's consistently top 2% so not just a "Mum" version of well behaved.
The odd accommodation for sounds and smells doesn't mean a kid shouldn't be educated in mainstream!

Maybe you're point is should school be about using finite resources help everyone achieve 80% of their potential, or should all resources be focused on helping those who struggle achieve 90% of their potential while those who don't struggle as much are required to rely on family support alone?

Are the "average plus" students not helped to excel as much as the struggling ones are to reach average standard? I personally feel this is the biggest issue.

Those whose children benefit from a lot of support will, as this thread demonstrates, shout loudly that it takes away nothing from others and that able students will always have an advantage and do better anyway.

The first point is untrue. Factually, when finite resources are directed towards a certain group, the other group gets less and does less well than they could have.
It's a choice. The right choice for the country ss a whole? I don't know. Economically? Almost likely not, ethically maybe / probably.

Those who are the beneficiaries just can't bear to verbalise that there are tradeoffs to supporting their children. Of course there are. Just own it and say "it is more important for x to be helped by school reach their potential than y".

It may be true but it's disingenuous to pretend there are no drawbacks.

This, most schools do not currently provide anything meaningful for more academic DC. Mine has been bored at school for years because everything in certain subjects (maths in particular) is too easy. It is not in state schools interest to challenge/stimulate bright DC as they want to "close the gap" with the less able not allow it to grow.

State schools have limited funding and resources so can’t be everything to everyone. Thats why they focus on trying to level the playing field for those who struggle.

My DS has some SEN but is academically fairly gifted. He mostly teaches himself the examination curriculum whilst his teachers focus on the less achieving kids.

With the advent of the internet, it can be done at home. This is so much easier than it was in my day when I had to traipse to the town library - an hours walk each way just to do my homework. I left school at 16 as I hated it there and ended up a few years later doing 2 degrees part time whilst working full time. Since being diagnosed as Autistic, I now understand why I felt so out of place at school.

As the parent, I think it’s up to me and his dad to help DS develop his talents which in his case, is music. So we choose to go without other stuff to pay for him to have extra music lessons and provide him with decent quality instruments. His mate in his band has parents that don’t value music so we’re trying to support him too.

Don't worry, teachers have to demonstrate what they are doing for more able children as well as those with SEN. They are expected to ensure that all children make progress. It's just a little bit difficult when there is only one adult to 30 kids, you can't teach and make sure every child across the range of the abilities can access the lesson and deal with another child's meltdown whilst simultaneously trying to deal with the poo accident on the carpet. Well, you can, but no one is going to make much progress. It's not as if the class is full of 28 NT children who will sit quietly whilst the ND issues are dealt with. In any one class in my ( leafy green suburb) primary school, you'll find maybe one or 2 children with autism, 4-6 with ADHD of varying degrees, one or 2 with GLD ( needing more support to help them learn) 2 or 3 with dyslexia who need additional input for reading and writing tasks, and maybe 5-6 more able children who can help themselves when pointed towards additional resources which will stretch them. In some schools, there are many more children who need additional support.
Some children need more help than others. They don't need equal time- some children are very independent in their learning and pick things up very quickly and can practise at their own speed, getting support from their peers if needed, or looking things up. But some children, even in Y6, can't write a sentence without an adult sitting next to them keeping them on track. These kids have such different needs.
The sad thing is the that funding is so minimal that resources have to be directed to those who need it most. Yes, it would be great to have extra stimulation for the more able, but on the whole they can motivate themselves.

I really think that most people do not get how pared back school funding is.
As an example, I've prepared scaffolded worksheets this week to support some children, but they need to be printed and then glued into their books. So if we are out of printer ink and paper, and there are no glue sticks left, and the new exercise books we need haven't been ordered yet because there is a moratorium on ordering anything because the school is 100k in the red,( we've been told to wait till September for new supplies) how do I make that work?We've had 2 members of staff longterm sick, that has cost over 100k, ( or 3-4 TAs if you want to look at it that way.) There is no money there to pay for the recommendations on EHCPs, that is why schools are not encouraging parents to apply, as it will cost the school money they have not got to comply.
So if this is something you feel strongly about, please contact your MP. Schools need more funding. Soon there will not be enough teachers, they are leaving in droves. The expectations are so unrealistic, nobody is going to want take that on unless something changes.

DS was high achieving, well behaved and autistic, he was definitely a pigeon in amongst the foxes by year 6!

Unfortunately too many kids really struggle with school and aren't given the support they desperately need - which may well include needing to be in a much smaller class than 30 kids. Inclusion should be about what's best for each individual, not sticking round pegs in square holes because it's cheaper.

What the government wants is all children to meet certain targets so school polices have to be geared to maximising the number of children that reach those targets. This means that children who will reach these targets need to be given the least support even if they need support in other ways, while children least likely to meet these targets need to be given the most support, even if they are better at other aspects of the curriculum.