To think that there should be some consequences for Judge Nicholas Rowland

I think the word 'opportunity' here is utterly offensive, whether applied to the boys - why should they be given 'opportunities' as a reward for rape? - or the girls - what kind of 'opportunity' is it to re-encounter the rapists who have traumatised you?

These boys can't be simultaneously so immature, naïve and incapable that they "didn't understand" they were gang raping two girls, while also being mature enough to learn from the experience, engage with rehabilitation and complete community service.

You can't have it both ways.

Repeated gang rape isn't something that happens absent-mindedly or by accident.

This 'restorative justice' lark puts me in mind of how the elders of a church might socially pressure a victim to meet with and 'forgive' a perpetrator's pathetic lies of apology, framing it as being for the victim's own good as well as the perpetrator's. Sadly, the victim often comes to believe that they need to forgive the perpetrator and will force themselves to do so, and are then re-victimised regularly by being forced to treat the perpetrator like any fellow churchgoer.

Frankly I have no idea how, in cases of rape and sexual abuse, allowing the perpetrator to have a chance to revel in their victim's suffering and vulnerability, is supposed to be 'healing' to the victim, or helping the perpetrator understand what they've done (as though they don't already).

Saying they should be locked up forever is ridiculous when considering the reality that these are 14 year olds.

If a boy is capable of gang rape he is capable of gang rape.

I don't think this is something one 'grows out of'.

Well yes, the boys and their well being is of course the priority.

We don't know that they can't be made aware. They weren't showing full awareness during the court process. That doesn't mean they can't learn and be supported to understand in future.

Saying they should be locked up forever is ridiculous when considering the reality that these are 14 year olds.

It's a joke. They come from a community who are lawless, meaning they are outside society and don't abide by any rules of society, regard themselves as impervious and superior to those rules. What message does this send to law abiding people?

And you’re not being attacked Enid, you’re telling posters their responses are ‘knee jerk” for not thinking restorative justice is the way forward.

Agree
Same with judge Nolan in Ireland
Let's rapists go free with an "ah well he's a good father and has a job ". .
Whereas he has jailed single mothers for shop lifting

So again @EnidSpyton if they don’t know, and can’t be made aware that rape and other violence is wrong, should they be out with a 24/7 close supervised, male only staffed setting?

Not for these specific boys, obviously, no.

Generally, yes. Why not do some research if you're interested rather than attacking me for giving an alternative perspective.

If these boys are unable to understand not to rape, they need to be incarcerated for everyone's sake, effectively forever.

I'm not being sympathetic to the boys. I'm being realistic about their circumstances and their intellectual capacity.

Punishment is only effective if people are able to engage with why they are being punished.

Is there any evidence that 'community based sentencing, with restricted movement and close monitoring replacing prison, with enforced unpaid work involving giving back to the community, apprenticeships to learn useful skills, etc, and the opportunity to do restorative work with those they have harmed.' is going to help the victims, and/or stop these boys from reoffending?

I'm not talking about these boys in particular. You asked about what other forms of punishment there are outside of prison, and I gave examples generally, not specifically in reference to this case.

Restorative justice is obviously not always appropriate.

I mean fucksake, the boys get sympathy for their difficult lives, but we are being told not to be 'knee jerk'.

Rather than responding with a patronising and offensive post, I suggest you try some empathy and consideration.

If they are unable to understand what they did and why they shouldn't have, then getting them to 'engage' with their victims might be very dangerous indeed.

That's not what I'm saying.

I don't think you understand what restorative justice is.

It's about providing opportunities for the victim and perpetrator to meet, so that the perpetrator can fully understand the impact of their behaviour.

It is only ever done consensually and is not about the victim 'helping to rehab' the person who committed a crime against them. Often victims can find it incredibly healing to be able to go through the process. It is mutually beneficial.

Rather than responding with a knee-jerk emotional reaction, I would recommend doing some reading around it and coming to a more informed perspective.

@EnidSpyton and, I read the documentation. Which bit shows clearly that they didn't know what they were doing?

@EnidSpyton thanks for those examples Enid. They sound like good ideas. I must say I'm wary of the "X can't be held accountable/responsible because of X condition or experience". I think this has become quite prevalent in lots of places these days and I think it's harmful to both the person and others. If we leave aside children, why can't an adult with SEN be held accountable for their bad behaviour?

So @EnidSpyton the boys didn’t know what they did was wrong, won’t know what they did was wrong?
Having to engage with those you have harmed and understand why your behaviour has been harmful can often lead to really meaningful outcomes for both victims and perpetrators.
are you actually saying rape victims should meet with their rapist to help rehab the rapist?!
how on earth would this be a meaningful outcome for a victim, when professionals are saying, “ ah it’s not their fault, they don’t know any better, you as the rape victim should be helping them”

I think punishment needs to be considered carefully when it comes to the ages of the perpetrators, their capacity to understand why what they did was wrong, and what ultimately will be the best course of action to help rehabilitate them so that they don't commit the same crime again.

If you look at the statistics of crime and recidivism around the world, the reality is that prison is not an effective means of punishment in terms of it being a) a deterrent and b) a means of rehabilitation. It's a very expensive holding pen full of people who have largely been very failed by multiple people and institutions in their early life. Around 25% of prisoners in the UK were in the care system as children or young adults. That tells you a lot.

So we need to think of other means of punishment that will enable people to learn from their mistakes, deal with the often traumatic and chaotic childhoods they have experienced that have led them to commit crime in the first place, and enable them to become productive members of society in the future. I would like to see more community based sentencing, with restricted movement and close monitoring replacing prison, with enforced unpaid work involving giving back to the community, apprenticeships to learn useful skills, etc, and the opportunity to do restorative work with those they have harmed. Having to engage with those you have harmed and understand why your behaviour has been harmful can often lead to really meaningful outcomes for both victims and perpetrators.

The girls in this case have been through something horrific and horrendous and I feel for them and their families enormously. However, the boys in this case have been out of formal schooling for several years, have low intelligence, and SEN. Treating them as if they are fully formed, well-adjusted adults who fully understand the implications of their actions and should be locked up for life as a result is not appropriate in these circumstances. If you actually read the documentation, it's clear that they didn't fully grasp what they were doing and that is one of the reasons behind the original judge's initial decision.

Even the consensual part of this is horrifying though from a parental perspective.

That's terrifying, but it's also terrifying that those girls were travelling to meet boys they'd never met before, for sex, especially such a young age.

They are absolutely not to blame for the rapes. What ended up happening to those girls was not what they'd agreed and not what they consented to. But even the idea that your teenage daughter might choose to meet a boy she didn't know for sex under some dodgy underpass is horrifying.

As a mother of daughters everything about this case is disturbing.