To think that there should be some consequences for Judge Nicholas Rowland

So you want me to tell you which bits you've missed when I'm not you and don't know which bits you've read and not read.

I'm not psychic 😂.

I see. So no particular bits that you think are being missed or overlooked.

@OtterlyAstounding No, it should not happen. There’s a current debate about putting the age of responsibility up to 14. Like just about everywhere else. Maybe you should look at the justice systems for juniors elsewhere because we are not going to adopt your draconian ideas.

@WrongKindOfFeminist@OtterlyAstounding Why are you making things up? It’s not compassion to rehabilitate young offenders if we can. We don’t lock up dc for very long periods so you are way out in your expectations and it won’t happen. The victims have been considered by Lady Carr. Did you read what she said?

What a strange question, as I have no idea which bits you decided not to read.

And absolutely you can have an opinion. But I'm the same way that someone who tries to review a book who only read the first chapter, your opinion will be under informed.

If you don't know fully what happened then you are in no position to judge either what should happen to these boys or the decisions made by judges who have read it all.

Well, thats your opinion. Which particular bits are you so keen for others ro read? What do you think anyone has missed?

@WrongKindOfFeminist@OtterlyAstounding Why are you making things up? It’s not compassion to rehabilitate young offenders if we can. We don’t lock up dc for very long periods so you are way out in your expectations and it won’t happen. The victims have been considered by Lady Carr. Did you read what she said?

All this compassion and care for 'minors'. What about the girls who were gang raped? Not a word about their wellbeing? What's the 'balance' for them?

They are horrid to read, it i don't think you can have an informed opinion on the case unless you do read it all.

Fortunately, you don't have to force yourself to read it, but then I don't think you can criticise the decision making of people who have read it.

@WrongKindOfFeminist Did anyone ever tell you “two wrongs don’t make a right”? For dc, in particular, the states role is mostly trying to rehabilitate these boys. It’s not prolonged incarceration or retribution. It’s people like you who whip up vigilante groups and it’s wrong. The state is not about imprisoning minors for very long periods. There must be a balance and I think the court of appeal sentence is correct.

@WrongKindOfFeminist @OtterlyAstounding

I totally get your anger. I am furious at the leniency of rape sentences too.

But in this case, I am approaching it from the perspective of someone who works with teenagers, and with prisoners.

I have worked in a school with boys like this. Low intelligence. SEN. Poor impulse control. Usually chaotic home lives and poor parenting in the mix - often parents with low intelligence and SEN too, and drug/alcohol abuse, domestic violence, emotional/physical abuse, poverty, neglect, etc. A lot of them wound up in trouble with the police but they were not evil or monsters. They were children who had been horrifically let down by the adults around them, and hadn't been given the tools to function normally in society.

When it comes to the boys in this case, the reality is we can't lock them up for life for what they have done. The law doesn't allow us to.

So we have to think about - when their sentence ends, what do we want the outcome to be? That they are back out on the streets raping more girls? Or that they are able to reintegrate into society successfully without reoffending?

Statistically, the latter option is much more attainable if they don't go to prison. That will have partly been why the original judge went down that sentencing route. Young people are statistically proven to be less likely to reoffend if they don't go to prison but instead serve a community sentence (up to 50% less likely), and that is the result that is better ultimately for society as a whole, even if it's not immediately better for the victim.

This is the challenging and difficult nature of discussing sentencing and punishment and so on. It's not just about the victim and what's best for them. Of course it should be, but it can't be, because if, as in the majority of cases of crime, there is a reality that the perpetrator will not be in prison forever, there has to also be thought to what the outcome of that will be, and how to reduce the chances of there being future victims of that perpetrator.

As someone who volunteers in the sector, has interacted with a lot of prisoners and people working in the justice system, and has done a lot of reading around the subject, I am clearly coming at this from a different perspective than the majority of people on this thread, and I don't think that's a problem - it's a discussion forum, and all views should be valid and open to exploring.

I am angry about what happened to the girls. I am so sad for them and the trauma they have experienced, and I have a huge amount of empathy for them and their families.

But having taught hundreds of 14 year olds in my career, I can tell you that something has gone very, very wrong in these boys' home lives for them to have done this. It doesn't excuse what they have done or mean they don't need to be punished - I am just not convinced prison is the right form of punishment if the desired outcome is rehabilitation, which in my view, it should be when we're looking at people who are very young and have a lot of life left to live.

It's 'savage' to think that rape should mean prison. I see.

I found the graphic descriptions of child sex abuse hard to read. I read more than enough.

So you're passing judgement on the sentences despite not being able to stomach reading what was found to have actually happened?

@WrongKindOfFeminist We don’t have Gaols for 14 year olds. You don’t seem to understand the justice system for children. They are deprived of their liberty but they need help to prevent reoffending if at all possible. All this retribution and locking up gets us nowhere and you are not in charge of sentencing or anything to do with the law. Crimes are interpreted for severity and other issues, and judges weigh up various considerations. This judge weighted incorrectly and it’s been changed. You savage views are not helpful and won’t ever be adopted.

I don't believe these boys are monsters. I know they are rapists.

I've no doubt there are reasons for their behaviour.

I don't think rape is an accident, or something that happens to any lad who is confused or stupid or has a bad day. It's likely going to be the outcome of longstanding trauma and abuse and bad circumstances and treatment. Especially in a case like this - I have to admit I couldn't stomach reading all of the details but what I read suggested they were organised, had intent, recorded it, menaced the victims, and knew enough to know what they were doing.

Unfortunately that isn't considered bad enough to jail them.

Jail is necessary for their safety as well as that of the girls, if you want to consider that.

When a community feels that justice hasn't been done, it puts people in a dangerous situation. It inflames tension. It can lead to far worse outcomes than a loss of liberty for a few years.

I suggest jail is going to be more likely to 1. remove these boys from their contextual situation that has caused the behaviour, 2. protect the girls, 3. show that justice has been done, 4. offer more opportunities for treatment of the offenders.

Yes, rehabilitate and treat them when they're in there. But get them off the streets and out of the situations where they have offended.

Other things that need considered are : the effect on the community, on girls and women in the local area and beyond. The cost of treating the victims for possibly a long time. The trauma of a trial that has come to nothing may worsen that.
Trauma from abuse like this can be life shattering. They may not recover. The effect on other boys who see them getting away with it and may feel that maybe rape isn't such a big deal after all, maybe it even has cachet.

Given that young males have the highest offending rate of any group, it's mindblowing to me that there are assumptions of leniency.