White working class children

This forum is strangely condescending about the ‘lower classes’. Odd to be pushing underprivileged young people into ‘trades’. Surely we want people to achieve in jobs suited to their interests and abilities. Don’t see many middle classes on here aiming for their average intelligence sons to become brickies and plumbers. We need schools to work well for all young people and to do this the education system needs a radical overhaul.

@Machinemasoluem

The threshold for FSM is a lot lower now. It was higher than 7k, I am sure it was around the 14k mark back in 2020. We dipped under the threshold during Covid when my husband was made redundant. He works in a factory but once you’re on the FSM, they don’t remove you.

My original point was that, having worked in schools as a TA, I really think educational staff try really hard to bridge the gap but if parents don’t value education, it’s very hard to engage. I have no idea how they can be improved to be honest, it was just my view that WC kids can succeed if their parents value education.

I can see the statistics changing massively tbh, £7.4k is insanely low and will include a lot of families with problems that make studying hard.

When it includes every family receiving UC these studies will be looking at a far more varied group of people.

But yes you’re right the children who aren’t doing well will still be the same but more statistically hidden

@Thedevilhasfinallycaughtupwithhim

Well what is it that you want to know? My mum herself grew up in care, in and out of foster homes. Extreme poverty and surrounded by mental illness/addictions.

She worked as an NHS cleaner, then progressed in the NHS via a nursing bursary (which enabled her to earn a salary whilst studying). I guess the real question for us as a family is, why was she able to succeed? I think this is a complex question that even she herself would probably struggle to answer.

She had a foster family in her earlier years that made her read books and do a lot of work. So I think that was definitely a seed for her love of reading.

As for my brother? He left school at 15 to work as a plasterer. Owns his own business now. Did well. Lots of his WC peers also did the same though.

It is actually one of the major factors. Not the only one, but it contributes significantly to the problem.

The evidence on this has been discussed for years, yet many people especially parents seem unwilling to read about the subject or engage with the research. If They aren't even prepared to that it's difficult to see how we're going to solve it.

The statistics might change but the problem
won’t.

The article is about white boys receiving fsm which she said her son is. It’s worth remembering the eligibility for fsm is earning less than £7.4k a year but once you get them you get them till you leave school. The eligibility is supposed to be extended to all children whose parents receive Universal credit this autumn.

I wonder if this problem will statistically correct itself when that happens

Apologies @nomas and @BurnoutBee

Please regale us more with your tales of your mum earning £67k a year and your tradie bother who earns more.

It’s exactly who the BBC article is about.

The thread is about white working class children, anyone is welcome to share their views, including @BurnoutBee who has a son on FSM.

I’m happy for your mum (I read your other comments earlier).

I think it could be an idea worth exploring an area with a large population like a city with big council estates and other neighbourhoods. I can imagine class consciousness (or whatever you call it) being a lot stronger than in a town. My parents were not rich and lived in a council house too but it was on a road not an estate and I did not even realise it was different to owned houses

@Thedevilhasfinallycaughtupwithhim

Which I have discussed further up the thread. I have children who fit that bracket. I gave some valid points to share, also much further up the thread.

So please do stop calling people arrogant and ignorant. I disagreed with you that all working class boys are on the fringes of society. They are not. Some of those on FSM will be, but certainly, certainly not all. Many people who work, still have children on FSM, particularly if they are a single parent.

You sound very rude, and if I’m honest the completely ignorant and arrogant one ironically.

My point is, you’re not who the thread is about.

The thread is about boys on free school meals being failed by schools, by their home lives and ultimately by themselves and how we can stop that and help them engage is something positive.

Not all boys on free school meals will have these issues but many do, hence the statistics.

@Machinemasoluem

No idea but when you do come from a council estate and then you work in middle class sectors, you just can’t fail to see the class system for what it is. There’s no shame for me being WC, it just is what it is. My mum grew up in the care system and did well for herself, perhaps as a family that just makes us more aware about systems.

Is a packed lunch that expensive?

@Thedevilhasfinallycaughtupwithhim

Erm, I have a 16 year old white son myself on free school meals, are you okay? I work by the way. But my income is still under the threshold. What exactly is your point?

@BurnoutBee

“It spoke to thousands of young people and their parents as well as hundreds of teachers. Education data about white working class pupils was also analysed as part of the year-long review, looking at the 1.25 million young people in England who are white British and in receipt of free school meals.”

I wonder if there’s more class consciousness in cities than in towns?
No one around here talks about being middle or working class.
One day when my sons grown up I’ll have to ask him what class he thinks he’s in, I had him at 16 and all his clothes and toys came from charity shops for the first five years. He gets good grades and will hopefully get a good job and probably never think about what class he’s in. That’s how it goes round here anyway.

It’s incredible to see someone with such a perfect balance of arrogance and ignorance.

Who do you think this thread is about?

Boys on Free school meals performing the worst at school.

Yes that can be true...(although I think people sometimes exaggerate the case that all tradespeople earn more than all white collar workers, I think that's a bit of a misnomer). But certainly you can make a great living out of it, it's not to be discouraged. But there's more to this than making as much money as you can.

My point is that as a society we need people in governing/strategic/thinking/operational jobs. We need leaders, planners, project managers, doctors and nurses, teachers, social workers, journalists, designers, accountants, actuaries, bankers, technicians, engineers, etc etc. AI will automate some of these but the idea that all of these roles will disappear, leaving us as a nation of plumbers, roofers and glaziers is misleading.

If we're effectively telling an entire demographic of children that none of them should bother trying to attain any of these positions we're not only cutting off their options, we're damaging our country. If we really want our society to reflect everyone within it (including the "white working class"), telling them they don't have a place as decision-makers within that society isn't a great solution.

@Thedevilhasfinallycaughtupwithhim

I think you are describing the under class. It’s a contested term, but being a white working class boy does not mean you are on the fringes of society. Boys who come from families where substance abuse/addictions are present, where multiple generations haven’t worked are not working class. You are really not describing the working class there, the clue is in the name. Their parents need to be working, not engaged in criminality.

All this back and forth about what class teachers are and how much tradies can make isn’t going to address the topic of the post.

These boys aren’t going to be teachers or tradies. They are on the fringes of society. They won’t commit and stay on courses that will allow them to become qualified in either of those career paths.

We’re talking about boys who probably never attend school, are kicked out of class when they do, have very few positive relationships with any adults, have no positive role models they can relate to, are destined to remain on the fringes of society and then have children who perpetuate that cycle. Don’t forget to add alcohol, drugs and criminality to the mix.

How do we break the cycle?

Removal (at least in term time) from their environments might work? I know people baulk at the idea of borstals but nothing more gentle works. Perhaps a holistic twist on them. Away from home. Introducing new ideas and skills.

@Machinemasoluem

I do. I feel intrinsically WC. I’ll never not be the girl from inserts the name of my notorious council estate in the city that I live in.

Solidly WC, even as a kid on the estate (I’m 37 now). There were differences between me and other kids on the estate. Katriona Sullivan (PhD) who wrote the book “poor” and was from the same area as myself as a kid, said there was “rich poor” and “poor poor” on the estates.

I was rich poor. My mum and dad worked. Mum was a cleaner back then, dad in a factory. We never went hungry. We were always clean. We had bed times and routines.

Other kids on the estate went hungry, their parents were drug addicts, prostitutes. They were dirty. We didn’t play with those kids looking back. We were different so gravitated towards other families who were also solidly WC.

How many people intrinsically feel they belong to a class though? I don’t feel I intrinsically belong to a class and I’ve never discussed class with anyone in real life and had anyone tell me what class they’re in. I only see it discussed online.

I earn minimum wage and am honestly a loser in the game of life but am sure I’d be considered middle class by some people because I live in the south and don’t like eating spam or canned spaghetti.

Why does class discussions get so much traction if it’s all just meaningless and anyone can identify as whatever it’s a bit like saying you’re non binary and your pronouns are they/she or he/them

I don't think you can define class by occupation nowadays because there are so many jobs that exist now that didn't back when occupation determined your class. These newer roles are occupied by people from different social backgrounds so you have to use some other type of determinant.

For example, I work in the Tech industry. The company I work for employs a high number of privately educated people. I have the same or similar job titles to these employees, we do the same work. We all earn within roughly the same wage bracket around £150k - £200k. I consider myself 100%working class. I was state school educated, born on a council estate (parents bought a house when I was young so I didn't grow up on one but I was then raised on a working street at a time when home ownership was affordable for WC families).

There are a number of employees with a similar background to mine and the ones I know personally do not consider themselves MC either. We joke privately amongst ourselves about some of the attitudes our MC/upper MC colleagues display, e.g. one told me during the pandemic that my childcare issues could be easily solved if I just followed his example and got a live-in nanny and housekeeper. Others have asked which prep school I planned to send my DC and looked at me pityingly when I explained they were off to my local primary in East London😅

Your class, in my opinion, is something you intrinisically feel you belong to regardless of your actual job or status. I know MC people who are in poorly paid jobs (bankrolled by wealthy parents).

Regarding teachers, I have family members who teach and they would describe themselves as working class.

Am I missing something? The tradespeople I know earn three times what most academically trained people earn. Not as much as top lawyers, top surgeons etc but more than most teachers, lecturers, solicitors, junior doctors etc.

A plumber charged my DS £150 to spend 5 mins checking whether he could put a dishwasher in a tricky space. He didn't even measure up properly, just said, Yeah he could make it work. When DS asked if some of that £150 could be offset against the installation quote, the plumber said no. He was local. Can't have been more than 30 mins of his time, all in, to book the visit, attend and do the quote.