AIBU to be surprised by how much some parents seem to use punishments?

It's funny but i've noticed people who consider themselves 'stricter' (taking toys away, smacking, shouting) in many ways don't have very firm boundaries with kids i.e they might take a toy away but they will give it back if nagged enough or they will say they've cancelled plans but then not actually follow through. Some of my family consider me very lenient because i dont tend to shout at my kids (as in i try not to - i'm not perfect!). But actually if you watch closely i probably do have firmer boundaries. I've cancelled plans before but i followed through - and i never had to do it again (so far anyway). I think a lot comes down to whether boundaries stay in place or not.

For example, if you tell a typically developing child to brush their teeth or they’ll be no TV I guess when they’re older they’ll still understand that brushing your teeth is important and won’t need someone there imposing a threat in order for them to do it. I think for some children if you don’t explain why it’s important (often many, many times) when they’re older they’ll still need someone there with a ‘threat’ in order to get it done and they won’t achieve independence.

I think this is very simplistic, although appreciate that there is a limit to the compexity of an idea which can be expressed in one sentence in a forum post.

Teeth brushing is a great example though, because it is something which doesn't really have an intrinsic, instant feedback built in. It's difficult to tell if your own breath smells, and it takes quite a long time for toothache to develop after not brushing teeth, and the damage is already quite severe by the time the teeth actually hurt. Plus, we only get two sets of teeth and the second set could be damaged if the first set are extremely poorly cared for. So parents often need to use a variety of ways to persuade children to do it, unlike for example walking, which has a clear and obvious benefit and most babies/toddlers will be motivated to do it on their own.

Most things parents do in terms of tooth brushing are the set up work which happens long before children can be motivated by either extrinsic reward/punishment or reasoning, when they are babies and toddlers - we make it part of the everyday routine, we may do it in some format even if they are protesting, we try to make it fun/positive using e.g. songs, games, a toothbrush with a favourite character, a toothpaste with a flavour they like etc, we ensure that they see adults modelling the behaviour, we express approval and admiration in response to tooth-cleaning.

The age range you're talking about, where we can appeal to reason/logic in order to build intrinsic motivation, or use external reward/punishment (or approval/disapproval) to create extrinsic motivation, is the stage following this. Children in this stage haven't yet developed the ability that adults have, to understand a far-away consequence and use this to modify their own behaviour or guide their decision making. However, everyone develops this ability at different times and some people find it easier than others. It's related to executive functioning, some of which is developmental, so it is universally true that the younger a child is, the more immediate the "effect" needs to be for them to link the "cause" to it. Older children can link slightly more distant cause to effect, and adults can do this best of all. But even within groups of children the same age, some of them can modify their behaviour in response to something they anticipate later and some will find this more difficult - you might have heard of the marshmallow test? Essentially it tests a proxy of the same ability. The ability to defer gratification in pursuit of a later reward.

So because it is almost developmentally impossible for children to grasp a consequence as far away and serious as tooth decay, let alone for them to use such an abstract-seeming thing to self-motivate until they are much older, parents have to do quite a lot of what is essentially "translating" this far away, serious consequence into something much closer and more tangible, and that is the role that unrelated consequences can sometimes play.

They won't need this forever, because they will reach an age where they can understand the long term consequences (and care more about the short term social consequences of having bad breath) and make the choice for themselves based on that reasoning. Or it will already be a habit by then which (hopefully) makes it easier for them to continue the behaviour into adulthood.

Easy to judge when they aren't your children.

I parent the same way, my older children are adults now and there's been no shocks and surprises. They're all ND which presents in very different ways.

I just don't believe there needs to be so much control rather than co-operation or punishments instead of communication. We use natural consequences.

I'm regularly surprised at how often punishment seems deemed necessary by others.

Congratulations to you.

I’ve raised 6 already with varying degrees of behaviour. Some as easy as pie to raise, others very difficult.

The 2 I’m raising right now are completely heinous at times, but are learning that actions have consequences.

Toys removed, not allowed to play out, no sweets this week. We use these types of discipline.

Your teeth example I'd not use TV at a threat for that, that would be ridiculous. You brush your teeth so they don't smell and fall out when you're older.

I do let mine take risks so perhaps you do more helicoptering when out and about. However I do have a tone where stop means stop for safety. For example my 9yo mows the lawn and is allowed to walk to a friend's a few doors down alone.

The thing is if you are firm with them when they are very young you need less "discipline" when older.

In the nicest possible way op, children also have different personalities. Some are more naturally compliant, relatively docile or more eager to please than others, less competitive, less dramatic. My eldest was like yours. A look and he would do as told & he doesn't need told twice.

My youngest? My god she is stubborn, persistent, wilful. She requires a much firmer parenting style & without a big consequence the message doesn't stick with her. She is much more naturally impulsive, dramatic, prone to big emotions. There are pros - the persistence applies to school work etc too, if she wants to do something she will persevere at it, and she's a natural leader. But she needs a different style.

When they were really young (three ish) I did count to three and there would be an unknown consequence if they didn’t do it by three. Unknown to them because they then couldn’t choose whether the consequence would be worth continuing the behaviour or not and it also gave me time to think of a reasonable consequence rather than blurting out unsuitable ones in the heat of the moment. I never had to actually use the consequence much because they knew that if I said it, I meant it. Normally starting with reasons why I was expecting them to do as I asked. Then counting if needed. Never just for the sake of it.

Occasionally they would push boundaries again, but a couple of reinforcing consequences would remind them I meant business and for months just counting again would get them to conform. And repeat.

By the time they were teenagers I never ever had to ground or take away Xboxes etc. They knew we were reasonable in our expectations. They knew why we had certain expectations. They weren’t perfect, but discussions about what had happened etc, put them back in the right track.

Now as young adults, they are good people.

I think there is a time and place for consequences. Never violence. But you need a whole toolbox of parenting techniques that you can use when necessary. Different tools at different times and situations, and different tools with different children.

You've got compliant children. That's the long and short of it.

My DC is way, way, more difficult than that!

My SD is 16 so I have done this already and we had the hormones, slammed doors and the odd big row. Occasionally I've been disappointed in her decisions. But ultimately, we've very rarely said an outright "no" to something she wants to do- we've started with curiosity about why she wants to do it and what outcome she's hoping for, and then moved to finding a compromise that keeps her safe whilst allowing her to seek the outcome she wants.

Of course, there is another layer with stepchildren where sometimes they go to their other parent who can override what you say, but the principles are the same.

I have taken screen time away for bad behaviour in the past, this is as far as my punishments have gone. My DC have never once been in trouble at school which is for me the biggest indicator my parenting skills have worked. They occasionally play up at home but not often, it’s the school behaviour that’s the biggest tell though. Kids misbehaving there likely have a crummy home life.

I agree OP. I cannot imagine in a million years even feeling like hitting my children! And they are by no means perfect angels.

DS has ADHD with suspected PDA (in his report but not strictly diagnosed) - punishments wouldn’t work on him anyway - he responds to being given a reason to do something, ie why it’s important.

DD doesn’t have those things but is the same, as was I as a child. Give any of us the reason and we’ll do it. Possibly I have PDA too though as I don’t even like the bossiness of exercise classes 😂

Eldest DC is ND and a rule follower. No problems, always does as asked.

Youngest DC was an angel until he turned 9 (NT) and is pushing ALL the buttons.

I parent them both the same. Framework. Cadre. Whatever you want to call it.

So yes, you may be in for a shock.

As the mother of an adult, can I just tell you that it is far easier when your child is 6. When your child is a teen and being influenced by other teens who may not have had the same upbringing as your child, peer pressure kicks in and things become far more complex.
I hope your lovely 6 year old sticks with the temporary hair drops - you’re correct, I know from experience that the hair bleach is far less pleasant to deal with 🙈

If you're having to "punish" teenagers then you've already got problems. You should have a good range of methods for ensuring they comply by then, because trying to impose punishments on an angry 15 yo who is bigger than you won't go well for anyone.

A huge part of it imo is that parents can get a bit reactive about things that don't matter, especially with strong-willed children. They then rebel as teenagers. My 6 yo wants to dye her hair pink. I could have made that into a huge battle and told her no and she'd probably wait a few years and then go off and buy a bottle of peroxide and do it in secret, ruining her hair and ending up in trouble at school.

Instead, I looked into temporary drops that you mix with conditioner and agreed we could colour it at the start of the summer holidays and it would need to be washed out before September. In her head, I'm working with her to get an outcome she wants rather than against her to stop her.

Because it's not that often that I say an outright "no" to something, she knows that when I do say no there's going to be a good reason why I'm saying that- and I will always explain the reason, even if it's not immediately in the moment.

Well congratulations on having pre teens that are obedient.

Your children are 8 and 10. You may find you’re a little less smug about it all in a couple of years. The teen years can be a wild ride!

In my opinion you're lucky OP and probably low demand.

What about the things they need to do first time for safety? You can't keep asking then.

I wouldn't be asking more than 3 times for anything to happen in my house, that way madness lies. No wonder we get kids in school who argue if they're given a warning after one instruction not being followed.

Ive raised my own kids plus I come from a culture where we all help with raising our younger siblings, cousins and nieces and nephews. I can guarantee I have raised more kids than you and likely over a longer time.

Having a firm foundation where your child understands that your word matters and that you mean what you say is vital. I've never, ever met a child, professionally or personally, who is off the rails and who truly has this firm foundation between them and their parents or guardians.

The parents are usually too bothered about their child liking them as if they are a peer or what other parents might think if they dare actually parent their child. Their children have no respect for them, don't like them, and make sure to let them know that each day.

I understand why some parents have not had to do much to achieve this as dc1 would be so upset at being told off very mildly. A stern no," was enough for tears often and my big threat (after I said no or stop or some kind of warning twice) was "if you do that/don't do that, you will be in big trouble ".

I did sometimes wonder what that woulld actually look like, but it wasn't tested, the challenging only went to that point. I thought I was a super parent and couldn't really understand people who were disregulated enough to lose their shit with children to be honest.

Dc2 though, does not give a shit about anything. Tells me if I don't stop saying no, I will be in big trouble. Says "No nos! You are not being good to me". Goes batshit in public on occasion, tantrums like dc1 just never did. So much harder work!

So you waited to break the rules until there was a deadly virus going round?

Another thing I’ll throw in is that teaching total blind obedience isn’t always a good thing either. I was very compliant as a child, afraid of punishment (I remember being smacked for calling an adult “silly”), and indeed afraid of confrontation and standing my ground, because an adult could instantly end an argument by shouting at me or smacking me. I didn’t like being teased, and couldn’t possibly tease anybody else, and I simply didn’t understand why other children did it. To me, good-natured teasing was bullying. My brother was less inhibited than me, he pushed boundaries more, and in my childlike view, got away with murder, but I know as an adult he was treated the same as I was. My point is that children should (within reason) be allowed to act up a bit, find out where boundaries are, without necessarily being punished the first time; where possible, it should be explained to them why certain rules exist. I had much more respect for rules explained in this way. With rules and punishments which I saw as pointless, such as the whole school being made to practise lining up instead of having playtime, I obeyed them, but I seethed with anger. On one such occasion, aged 9, I lost my temper in spectacular fashion, in front of most of the school, and a teacher had to take me aside to calm me down. I loathed school in general for months after that: I saw it as a place where I was punished for what others did wrong.

As a teenager, my main failing was fear of criticism, especially about school work, and I got into spirals of lying about it, because I feared my parents’ reaction to bad marks, so I often didn’t do homework, and got into worse trouble. My mum was a teacher and was always “interfering”, and I told her as little about school as I could; this meant that I didn’t ask for help when I really needed it, and she could have provided it. I also couldn’t think outside the box, and I lacked creativity, which paradoxically meant I did badly in school subjects such as English; my only concern was giving the “right” answer. I feared criticism. I think my mum realised that I was over-compliant in just about everything apart from school work, and even she tried to encourage me to be a bit more “rebellious”, which I found absolutely baffling. She once said, and I quote: “My friend’s daughter often says ‘I hate you, mum’: I think it might do you good to say it occasionally”. I was fourteen at the time, and I think I stared open-mouthed on hearing this. When I was eighteen and able to do things myself, I felt I had to have my ideas “validated” by an adult; even ordinary things like going to the cinema.

As a young adult, I was extremely compliant, followed every rule in every book, got annoyed when other adults didn’t (eg. crossing the road at the red man), and I think this seriously held me back, and I didn’t have many friends. I thought about changing university course in my first year, but I stayed where I was, because didn’t want to “cause trouble”. The thing that finally snapped me out of blind compliance was 2020, when so many utterly mad roolz were imposed on us (most of which with no explanation or justification) and I became much more selective in my respect for “authority”, which was liberating, and I became much less of a people-pleaser.

My friend was very smug about her parenting and how she just explained what was expected and they did it. All fun and games until they hit puberty…

I really don’t see how anyone can truly believe this sort of thing unless they’ve very little empathy or life experience.

I don't think most people are using punishment loads. When my eldest was little I was very into gentle parenting, and this was a long time ago now, even before it was called that, but we had loads of threads about it on MN because it was a bit of a controversial idea that you wouldn't punish DC ever or really look to establish an expectation of compliance in general. It did feel like a distinct approach, different to the "mainstream" or normal approach to parenting, which, at the time, was in the tail end of the transition away from smacking and shouting, so lots of focus on direct alternatives to these strategies, such as naughty step/time out/removal of privileges, or token economy type things e.g. pasta jar, reward chart, clip chart kind of things. And the threads we had were more like what I think is mainstream now - talking about feelings, understanding tantrums as small children being overwhelmed, seeing the child's point of view, understanding that certain expectations might be difficult for them until they are older and being willing to break things down into steps or meet them halfway, etc. Essentially seeing parenting as being a version of teaching and guiding rather than the "toddler taming", drive the wildness out of them sort of narrative which had been more prevalent in the 00s and earlier.

Obviously like now, there were periodic threads about "But isn't this gentle parenting just a load of nonsense though?" and I remember one thread which really changed my mind because a poster asked me well - what's different about this gentle parenting? What are you doing which is so special that it needs a different name? I described what I felt the differences were and she replied and said this just sounds like what everyone I know does. She didn't recognise the version of parenting that I was presenting as the alternative to "gentle parenting" and I realised she was right, I'd been labouring under a very odd and probably just outdated idea that most people are expecting unthinking obedience from their children, ready to wield all kinds of threats to keep them in line, etc.

But also, I think that your children sound unusually naturally compliant. Which some children probably just are. We (humans) do have a natural instinct to want to please others/please our parents.

TBH although I don't use punishment/consequences very often, and don't especially have an expectation of compliance, I absolutely do not have naturally compliant children and do have to use it sometimes.