Boris, Farage and Gove re Brexit-“Never have so few done so much damage to so many with so little ability to execute what they lied about.”

Economics doesn't really work like that. There is no alternative universe we can look at where Brexit didn't happen and directly compare the two.

What they can do is advanced statistical modelling, comparing different economies etc

By asking for some definite proof you're showing yourself to be ignorant of how economics works as a discipline. Or you're just deliberately trying to deflect from the harm it caused. So what is it, ignorance or deflection?

Still waiting,

Not at all, but it was beneficial to the UK economy. The way to change a club that is imperfect though is by remaining in it and influencing it from the inside as a part of it. Once one leaves, there is no further part to be played.

What the UK has discovered since leaving is that the club was actually beneficial.

There were many flawed things about the EU. There were many benefits. On balance, the benefits outweighed the flaws.

@BurntBroccoli Farage also exerted electoral pressure on the Tory Party. UKIP had experienced a surge in popularity, especially in the 2014 European Parliament elections where it won the most UK seats outperforming both Labour and the Conservatives. This rise played a major role in prompting David Cameron to include an EU referendum in the 2015 Conservative manifesto, widely seen as an attempt to counter UKIP’s growing influence.

@DenizenOfAisleOfShame Given that the left of Labour has never been particularly pro-EU - hence so many Labour areas voting leave in Labour’s northern heartlands - that’s not so surprising. For the MP for Islington North and then leader of the Labour opposition to be so coy on the referendum was very significant though.

Agree with both of these summaries. It was the PM and the Leader of the Opposition who were in the responsible positions.

And yet this latest attempt at accountability will be like water off a ducks back to them
😡

It’s fair enough to think that political leaders can make a difference. Which is why, on what turned out to be quite a close vote, the tepid and useless contribution of Jeremy Corbyn doesn’t receive enough attention.

Given that the left of Labour has never been particularly pro-EU - hence so many Labour areas voting leave in Labour’s northern heartlands - that’s not so surprising. For the MP for Islington North and then leader of the Labour opposition to be so coy on the referendum was very significant though.

Blame Corbyn.

HappiestSleeping
I have yet to hear any substantive evidence for any of his criticisms of the EU

Do you think the EU is perfect?

Farage (I’m assuming that’s who you are talking about) played a huge and influential role in the lead-up to Brexit.

If you remember, he was one of the most vocal and recognisable advocates for the UK leaving the EU.

Farage also founded UKIP in the 1990s and helped build a political movement whose core mission was to take Britain out of the EU. Although he never held a seat in the UK Parliament, he served as a Member of the European Parliament from 1999 to 2020, using that position to criticise the EU from within and amplify Eurosceptic sentiment.

Through speeches, media appearances, and campaigning, he portrayed the EU as undemocratic, unaccountable, a threat to British sovereignty and responsible for unwanted immigration. His rhetoric and slogan “We want our country back!” was copied by Leavers.

This bit is important; Farage also exerted electoral pressure on the Tory Party. UKIP had experienced a surge in popularity, especially in the 2014 European Parliament elections where it won the most UK seats outperforming both Labour and the Conservatives. This rise played a major role in prompting David Cameron to include an EU referendum in the 2015 Conservative manifesto, widely seen as an attempt to counter UKIP’s growing influence.

During the 2016 Brexit referendum, Farage was not part of the official “Vote Leave” campaign, which was fronted by figures such as Boris Johnson and Michael Gove. Instead, he led the separate “Leave.EU” campaign, which adopted a more populist and immigration-focused strategy. Farage maintained a strong presence on television, radio, and social media, often using provocative messaging that attracted both support and criticism. One of the most controversial moments was his unveiling of the “Breaking Point” poster, which depicted migrants lining up at a border. The image was condemned by many, including members of the official Vote Leave campaign, as xenophobic.

I think my point about Farage being so anti EU in general was more along the lines of how would he know if he wasn't ever there? Surely if one is to form an opinion about something, one has to be part of it. I can sit at home quite happily and form opinions about a great many things, however my opinion isn't very valid if I haven't ever taken part in any of those things. I could advise about what team Arsenal should field next year, but I've never been to a football match, so what would my opinion be worth?

I have yet to hear any substantive evidence for any of his criticisms of the EU. Nor any evidence from any credible economic analyst that leaving was beneficial for the UK. Undoubtedly Covid and the Ukraine was have muddied the waters, as the Iran situation is doing now, but as the Independant article pointed out, there hasn't been a mass delivery of all the purported benefits. Farage was in it purely for his own personal gain / fun / whatever.

About the only good he is bringing is the potential end to bipartisan politics in this country and giving the two main parties in that bipartisan system a good kick up the arse. Maybe that is a good thing. It is certainly full of risk for the electorate.

What is it with fishing and Brexit?

Farage was on the fishing committee - I assumed you were talking about his votes there.

Also, from one of my links up thread;

Landmarks in law: the 90s fishing case that stoked UK Euroscepticism

Before Factortame, some UK politicians hadn’t fully grasped the power of EU law over parliament

What is it with fishing and Brexit? The fishing policy was established ages ago, and the UK voted for it at the time. The fishing industry did itself more damage by leaving the EU than by staying in, so fishing is a non argument.

Different set of votes - UKIP claim they sent a substitute voter to the committees anyway

They claim that, but it isn't true.

There were indeed 600 MEPs. To be honest, I didn't not realise the importance of the MEP. I concentrated on the UK MPs. Turns out voting for the correct MEP was a very important thing to do.

The original point was whether he should hang his head in shame, and I still think he should. The only thing he is good at, and I have to credit him with this, is making the incredible sound so very credible. He is a genius at that. Starmer could learn a lot from him.

Don't worry, if he ever becomes prime minister, he'll probably be just as present as Keir Starmer. And just as annoying.

His vote doesn’t count for much in the Commons, presumably that’s why he’s never there.

Not fishing then.

Farage wouldn't know though as he didn't turn up for 80% of the votes

Different set of votes - UKIP claim they sent a substitute voter to the committees anyway. In the European Parliament, there were over 600 MEPs - his vote there wouldn't count for much on his own.

You’re wise not to watch it. It made me very angry.

A remainer writes…

I voted against leaving. I would vote to rejoin, assuming the terms were reasonable (‘reasonable’ would include adopting the Euro).

Even so, I was and am in that big group of broadly but critically pro-membership voters.

But I marvel at the weird obsessiveness of the most ardent pro-EU frothers. Surely you can see that people had some basis for being unhappy with the EU? Plenty of current EU citizens are doubtful about the EU.

The one unspoken stumbling block we may face is that if we withdraw from the ECHR - which looks more or less inevitable now, and the true benefits for doing so have nothing to do with immigration control - we will be ruled out as EU members unless the EU changes its foundational treaties to avoid the need for Euro Council membership.

I enjoyed the documentary so much, I watched the first episode twice - I plan to watch the second episode again when I get the chance.

It’s a tragic tale, nothing about it is humorous.

Have you watched the documentary?

If you think that wasn’t a hatchet job on the leave campaign you must have watched a different programme to me. Especially the last 30 seconds.

For everything important, a unanimous vote was required:
Foreign policy
EU expansion
Taxation
Budget
Treaty changes

For everything else QMV was possible.

Farage wouldn't know though as he didnt turn up for 80% of the votes.

Johnson's interview was amusing. I thought the documentary was going to be a hatchet-job on the leave campaign - it wasn't like that at all. It was upbeat and enjoyable to watch. Jeremy Corbyn made me laugh as well - he was a caricature of stubbornness.

Wheeler certainly contributed.