Boris, Farage and Gove re Brexit-“Never have so few done so much damage to so many with so little ability to execute what they lied about.”

My MIL voted for Brexit because she thought it was wrong that the Germans were telling us what to do, despite us having "beaten them in the war". She also
didn't like having nurses from other EU countries when she was in hospital.

was a bit dim[1].

Fixed that for you.

I have heard some carefully thought out and logically consistent reasons for voting leave. (Not on here, of course). These are Leavers who are not dim and whose arguments were cogent and valid. The fact that they were also wrong has now been proved and they all admit they missed a few nuances.

However anyone who spouts a slogan[2] - as is their right - without understanding what it means will forever be consigned to the "you're none too bright are you ?" side of the tracks.

[1]or racist. Same thing.

[2]or posts screeds of cut and -paste without verifying what it claims.

Look..it was ruled illegal. But it's a civil law matter. No way Boris should be tried for treason.

Aah that useful idiot. Can imagine how the Queen said ‘approved’ through gritted teeth.

It's fucking sad that we're reliant on Heseltine to say out loud what has happened.

I wish this government had the ability to communicate, and the gumption to do so, especially on this.

I think that now we have the data, lots of people who voted Leave where bad actors (ie Farage, funded by foreign billionaires) were able to lie in an information vacuum would change their minds - IF we had a government who was able to tell that story in a meaningful way.

There are people on Twitter who say things and post some graphs and say "oh look it's all wrong". This woman called Catherine McBride. Idk how accurate she is..I think she's wrong

Youre right, there are multiple reports to draw on that show the economic damage to Britain by Vote Leave.

Have you seen any economic reports that show Brexit has been neutral/ beneficial to the UK?

I've thought about this long and hard. How does trade barriers and frictions with our biggest trade partner help?

My MIL voted for Brexit because she thought it was wrong that the Germans were telling us what to do, despite us having "beaten them in the war". She also didn't like having nurses from other EU countries when she was in hospital.

A couple of years later, she was in hospital again. When she came home she moaned about having Filippino nurses treating her.

It didn't go down well when I pointed out that the reason we had Filippino nurses was because the EU nurses had left because of Brexit, to which she replied "But I didn't vote for THAT!".

She can't see that Brexit was in any way responsible for EU migrants leaving and the gaps being filled by non-EU workers.

What is the way out of this for the UK?

I'm from Ireland, so really interested to see what the consensus is there. I know there are some Leave voters who still hold on doggedly that voting Leave was the right thing to do, but it does look like the vast majority of Leave voters now concede - at least - that implementation of Leave was wholly botched and has left them in a weaker economic state than if they had a) chosen to stay or b) had a competent leadership who would have implemented a phased withdrawal.

Do you now take steps to rejoin the common market? That will, of course, mean that you will have to implement the same laws as the rest of the EU as they are implemented, without the ability to influence their drafting. But it is better than the current situation?

Is there a possibility of someone starting a new party with the sole purpose of rejoining the EU - the sort of mirror image of the Brexit party in its day? Or is that still an absolute no-go area for anyone, given the political views of those that own the major internet news platforms and the control the Russians and Chinese have over the internet?

I just can't see a way out of this for you guys. Even when the current energy crises lifts, and other EU economies start growing again, Brexit will remain as a self inflicted permanent drag on your economic growth.

We have seen how economists have got many things wrong in the past, growth figures etc,
if nobody can show definitively that Brexit hasn’t made the UK better or worse, you can choose which figures you want to support your argument. Especially with people who want to prove it hasn’t worked.
I personally can’t say Brexit has failed or been a success it depends on what outcome or result you were expecting, The only thing I can say with any degree of certainty is, the result of the referendum vote was not accepted by a lot of sitting politicians and civil servants etc and they done everything they could to hinder the process to leave the EU, hoping there would be another vote. They never accepted the public’s vote and work together to get the best available outcome wether they agreed or disagreed with the public’s vote, after all they do represent the public.

Slow day on the Brexit board is it?

Exactly. Osborne's phrasing was so stupid. He should have made it clear it meant EVERYONE's purchasing power will go down except for a very few very rich bunch who would benefit and widen the wealth gap for everybody else.

@Unphased

Still waiting for an answer to my question

They saw it as an easy fix to a fundamental dispute within their party over whether the UK's interests were better served within a EU super state or not.

That dispute had lain unresolved for decades splitting the party. It's actually in reality still the debate we are having today. Do we want bigger government or smaller? Higher taxes or lower? Business growth first or benefits?

These are essentially the same issue. Where Cameron was criminal was, emboldened by "winning" the Scottish referendum, he took the country to the casino and held anothrr referendum betting that we'd stay in AND in so doing thereby resolve the tension in his own party.

It was unbelievably reckless to do this in that way to make his job as leader easier.

Now we have no advantage from being outside the EU and all those questions about the sort of country the UK should be are just as pressing (except that our options are narrowing as we head for bankruptcy).

Completely agree with the Eton Bullingdon club mentality that prevailed around decision making . So many people from near identical backgrounds.
there was a very interesting article about this in Der Spiegel available in English - that referenced the immaturity allied with entitled arrogance and lack of experience

@HRTQueen If the very MP’s who voted to have the referendum had little to no understanding of how the EU operates how is the public meant to

I still agree with this. I blame the Bullingdon Club primarily. There was an arrogance and rivalry there. I remember George Osborne threatening the public that if they vote Leave their house prices would go down. So many people would have thought that they might have then been able to afford a house!

If you can casually trash a restaurant .....

I blame the idiots who actually voted for Brexit more than I blame Farage et al.

Theirs wasn’t the only voice on the subject and they didn’t force anyone to credit them.

The individuals who were small minded and stupid enough to listen to him carry the shame.

Given the gravity and impact of the decision to be made, the process was shoddily organized and executed.
I was surprised that it was deemed a simple majority however slim, would suffice.
if it had been made a minimum 60% it would have made more sense.

I will never forgive every politician who voted to have the referendum when this has not even been fully considered in Parliament. I believe they got carried away with excitement of something so momentous. The referendum never needed to happen and simply shouldn’t have

too many mp’s were totally out of touch, many I believe it was a protest vote or a simple vote of things have been terrible for me for many years so why not try an alternative

If the very MP’s who voted to have the referendum had little to no understanding of how the EU operates how is the public meant to

I voted Remain and still believe being in the EU, for all its faults, was an still is the best thing for the UK.

I could just about accept the decision to leave if the actual process of leaving hadn't been so unforgivably fucked up. It really was organised and enacted by some of the stupidest, laziest and most entitled people in UK politics.

I will never forgive them for that.

Agreed. I am not optimistic.

And the electorates trolley like behaviour is to some extent fuelled by the snake oil salesman politicians telling them that they have better snake oil than the last guy.

This could be exactly what late/end stage democracy looks like.

@KateSixer we as the electorate have to push our politicians to act rationally

It would seem that we are hell-bent on doing the opposite. I think much of Brexit was a protest vote. Currently we have had the reaction from the local elections - the stepping down to crown the successor in Makerfield. I remember the kingmaker, Dominic Cummings, calling Boris a trolley because he careers around randomly from side to side. I hope we are not imitating him.

I think about this a lot. I think the NBER study is sensible with it's method. And trade frictions with the EU doesn't exactly help. But I see all these commentators and "economists" on twitter who say the NBER study is all BS and show some graphs and something. Idk.

I think the parties on the right and the left are both guilty of magical thinking. Not telling people the home truths of the UK's economic predicament has worked to get politicians elected.

It worked for Boris and it worked for Starmer. But it backfires when this bury your head in the sand is applied in elected office. Everyone starts hating you.

Then because you are hated - as in the last election and no doubt the same will happen next time - there is a huge swing away from the govt. Often to the next snake oil salesman who pretends they have a magical pain free solution.

But let's get this clear. This isn't a joke. It affects all of us and our families.

The UK economy is fucked along with household standards of living and benefits and everything else unless we get a grip and change.

We cannot keep spending and taxing without growth! Sooner or later it ends in economic collapse. That is not an opinion. It's just like physics. There are somethings you can't argue about.

We either decide to change how we do things in the UK now while we have a little time. Or we can go on swapping weak politicians who will blithely promise to protect the NHS, pay benefits, look after the public sector without having any long term plan as to how they do it sustainably.

If we just continue to do the latter, then sooner or later the international finance markets will realise that we are the equivalent of the emperor with no clothes and stop lending us more money.

At that stage we are in effect bankrupt and then the government simply will be unable to pay benefits, pensions etc. Obviously civil unrest follows etc etc.

So, if we want to avoid that, we as the electorate have to push our politicians to act rationally to deal with our public finances now - however unpopular it might be - because if we don't, longer term, the outcome will much much worse.

I don't know about managed decline - I think if they were less afraid of their own shadows, decline could be entirely avoidable - but the alternative on the right for sure means accelerated decline.