To think long term affairs are like a form of fraud really

Of course.

Or she could choose an honest open relationship

My ex was abusive, I made sure I got my career on track and then I was out. I didn't just ricochet to the next man and drag my kids along for the ride.

Does she? With children settled at a particular school with their friends, and situated close enough for work etc? I couldn’t do it if I wanted to. Not without moving to a crappy sink estate somewhere and pulling my kids out of school. Only on Mumsnet do people swear blind they would do this because their DH leaves the loo seat up.

I am definitely in the 'shades of grey, not everything is black and white' camp here.

Even when people describe a 'faithful spouse' that gives the impression that sexual fidelity is the most important thing in a marriage. There are plenty of other marital qualities just as important - kindness, financial responsibility, reliability, co-parenting if applicable, moral support etc etc.
It's not a choice I'd relish but if I had to choose between a sexually promiscuous husband who was otherwise great or a sexually faithful dickhead who made my life a misery in other ways I'd choose the former every time.

And I would imagine that a lot of sexually faithful spouse's 'blindsided' by infidelity behave in ways which the unfaithful one would consider grounds to at least partially excuse infidelity. People talking about fraud or civil remedies for infidelity are mad IMO. It's almost never as simple as one partner being bad and the other saintly.

But she has the option to leave first then find a new man

Agree, I wonder how many of these ‘blindsided spouses’ just couldn’t see the fault in their own behaviour. My friend is getting divorced at the moment - her husband has spent over a decade ignoring her. He sits and watches TV in the evening, and treats her like an irritant for ‘interrupting’ him. There’s no conversation, no sex, he chooses to sleep in the spare bedroom. She’s tried talking to him about it time and time again but he just doesn’t see the problem. A lot of men and sometimes women do reach a point where they’re happy to live as basically platonic housemates, and then seem baffled the other person is desperate for some human connection.

I am definitely in the 'shades of grey, not everything is black and white' camp here.

Even when people describe a 'faithful spouse' that gives the impression that sexual fidelity is the most important thing in a marriage. There are plenty of other marital qualities just as important - kindness, financial responsibility, reliability, co-parenting if applicable, moral support etc etc.
It's not a choice I'd relish but if I had to choose between a sexually promiscuous husband who was otherwise great or a sexually faithful dickhead who made my life a misery in other ways I'd choose the former every time.

And I would imagine that a lot of sexually faithful spouse's 'blindsided' by infidelity behave in ways which the unfaithful one would consider grounds to at least partially excuse infidelity. People talking about fraud or civil remedies for infidelity are mad IMO. It's almost never as simple as one partner being bad and the other saintly.

There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

The scenarios I have seen play out are more like what pp have described, where the faithful partner was totally blindsided as the cheat had been playing along with normal family life, sleeping with them, all the rest of it. Then one day out the blue it either comes to light that it's all been a lie or the cheater suddenly ups and leaves. Devastating.

I haven't personally seen this 'knight in shining armour whose a lovely guy rescues distressed abused woman and they live happily ever after thank goodness for affairs' scenario which a few posters on here seem to have done.

The scenarios I have seen play out are more like what pp have described, where the faithful partner was totally blindsided as the cheat had been playing along with normal family life, sleeping with them, all the rest of it. Then one day out the blue it either comes to light that it's all been a lie or the cheater suddenly ups and leaves. Devastating.

I haven't personally seen this 'knight in shining armour whose a lovely guy rescues distressed abused woman and they live happily ever after thank goodness for affairs' scenario which a few posters on here seem to have done.

Exactly that scenario, yes. People are only human, and I really think that marriage asks some super-human things of people. Cheating when your marriage is good or fine or just OK is obviously despicable. But asking people to just put up with a lifetime of abject loneliness and a spouse who simply doesn't want to know is just unrealistic for many. It's great if people feel able to leave before they crack, but many can't. And I'm sure that many lonely, neglected spouses had every intention of just putting up with it, and then they met someone who reminded them that life didn't have to be that way. Or something happened to make them realise that life is short.

When someone neglects their spouse and refuses all attempts to reconnect, over the long term, I think that's as much a betrayal of the wedding vows as cheating is. I had a husband who never physically cheated, as far as I know, but every single day he betrayed all his other vows as well as the entire spirit of marriage, which is supposed to be about teamwork and partnership, and what's for the good of the partnership and not always the individual. HAH!

I never cheated, but to be fair, I was never tested, as I didn't meet any suitable alternatives.

Yes that’s another scenario which has happened to a few people I know. Loveless marriages where they desperately try to connect to their spouse but are frozen out, and no efforts to reach them work. Years of no physical touch, no sex and no affection must be soul destroying, but leaving would mean selling the family home, moving their children’s schools etc - and really, who can justify that to themselves for ‘just’ intimacy? I wouldn’t be able to.

Yeah, the older you get, the more you realise that there are many situations that aren't black and white. All the shades of grey reveal themselves as you go through life. I'm not sure I blame cheaters who have been denied sex and romance and affection for years. Yes, ideally you would leave, but that ignores the fact that there are probably still strong attachments to a neglectful spouse and maybe money issues, and maybe still a bit of hope despite stiff odds. And yes, maybe you can get your ducks in a row over time, but people are only human, and the needs for validation, connection, and affection are very strong in human beings. So if you meet someone who meets those needs, and you often feel like a ghost in your own home, of course people are going to crack sometimes.

Of course it’s deceit but I no longer feel as judgemental of cheats as I did.

The number of people well and truly stuck in miserable or abusive relationships wasn’t made clear to me until recent years. And no, they can’t just ‘get their ducks in a row and leave’.

Take my aunt. Abusive marriage, husband financially controlling her, beating their kids. He had spent so much of their money she was absolutely broke and had no prospect of being able to suddenly leave. She did have an affair, with a man who paid for her her escape, and provided her with much needed physical safety when she was at her most vulnerable just after leaving. I can’t imagine what he would’ve done if she hadn’t had the new man to protect her. I can’t judge her, I really can’t. 25 years she put up with that bastard

Or a scam or something? Yet another of my friends has been cheated on (long marriage, teenage kids) in a situation where he's been in an affair for years. By doing that you're not only living a lie but really it's conning the other person isn't it? I'm not saying it should be a crime as such, just thinking about the deceit factor with this type of situation.

To add to this, I do wish there was a punishment for being cheated on if you are married and the other party has concrete evidence. Which is not the easiest thing to collect. Yes, I’m bitter about being cheated on so biased.

I actually have a whole folder with contents that prove my OH cheated, just incase I need it for the future. It’s the hardest thing I’ve had to collect, but it’s achieved somewhere incase I need it - he could take me to court? He could accuse me or something. But at least I have dated evidence.

maybe jail is extreme (if I remove my emotions), but some financial compensation from the other party of kids are involved - something…

Sometimes women are in the wrong and we need to stop acting like a man being cheated on is less than. It’s equally as cruel.

My friend told me in her culture there isn’t much shame around divorce. It’s common to have blended families and sometimes a woman might have 5 kids with different husbands, and visa versa. They see it as when the relationship comes to an end, they make a mutual agreement. But they are also very community led, so everyone knows their multiple siblings etc.

Now I don’t know what that does to their society - but I guess we have to ask what scenario is better - living a lie - often one person is having to sacrifice their happiness, usually the woman trying to hold it all together because of the shame of divorce or not keeping her family. Or everyone splits, and agreement is made for the kids - this isn’t ideal for the children short term, I’ve also been through divorced parents too, it isn’t nice but with support I grew up to appreciate a freeer and happier version of my mum then the almost desperate shell like version she was when she was with my dad.

Yes it's awful and I've never understood why some women (the other woman) are happy with this situations. I have never seen an example I can think of where the affair partner of a long term affair was male. Men won't put themselves in these second best situations but so many women often do and I think they should be judged as harshly as the men who cheat.

To add to this, I do wish there was a punishment for being cheated on if you are married and the other party has concrete evidence. Which is not the easiest thing to collect. Yes, I’m bitter about being cheated on so biased.

I actually have a whole folder with contents that prove my OH cheated, just incase I need it for the future. It’s the hardest thing I’ve had to collect, but it’s achieved somewhere incase I need it - he could take me to court? He could accuse me or something. But at least I have dated evidence.

maybe jail is extreme (if I remove my emotions), but some financial compensation from the other party of kids are involved - something…

Sometimes women are in the wrong and we need to stop acting like a man being cheated on is less than. It’s equally as cruel.

My friend told me in her culture there isn’t much shame around divorce. It’s common to have blended families and sometimes a woman might have 5 kids with different husbands, and visa versa. They see it as when the relationship comes to an end, they make a mutual agreement. But they are also very community led, so everyone knows their multiple siblings etc.

Now I don’t know what that does to their society - but I guess we have to ask what scenario is better - living a lie - often one person is having to sacrifice their happiness, usually the woman trying to hold it all together because of the shame of divorce or not keeping her family. Or everyone splits, and agreement is made for the kids - this isn’t ideal for the children short term, I’ve also been through divorced parents too, it isn’t nice but with support I grew up to appreciate a freeer and happier version of my mum then the almost desperate shell like version she was when she was with my dad.

Absolutely agree.

If my husband had come to me all those years ago and said, "I'm sorry, I've met someone else. I'm leaving you." that would have been heartbreaking and horrible, but it would have been understandable.

Instead he had an affair for four years. Coming home every night, eating the dinner I cooked, chatting about our days, sharing logistics of family life. We got on as well as we ever did. He was thoughtful, helpful, fully engaged in our marriage and our lives, I thought. He stood beside me at an award ceremony - the proudest day of my life. We had lovely holidays. Stayed with his parents, and mine. Christmases. Just living our lives together and planning our future. My best friend and life partner for 30 years.

But we weren't. It was a lie. Was he laughing at me? Did he and the other woman giggle at my idiocy? The planning it took. The lies. It leaves me breathless and tearful - not that he left, and not that he fell out of love with me, but that the person I trusted most in the world lied and lied and lied. Looked me in the eye and lied. It's like he made everything important to me worthless and grubby. He made me less than I thought I was. And he watched me puzzle about things and he knew. I would ask him sometimes when things didn't make sense. He made me an idiot. A fool. He made me never trust anyone again.