What exactly is the strictness in English schools actually achieving?

I wonder about this too as I'm in Ireland and I have family in the UK. They were shocked when I said we were getting a good deal on a holiday as it was during term time.

We told the teacher, agreed to double up on the homework and it was fine I think, not great obviously.

I'm a qualified teacher (older kids though) and one of my favourite parts of the training was learning about different countries approach education.

But there is no straightforward answer here because too many variables; the local teaching standards need to be aligned for local parenting approaches.

The more boundaries are pushed and the more that liberties are taken by pupils and parents, the stricter school rules become. Then you get the vicious circle of knee jerk reaction rules being broken, and more ridiculous rules being introduced to counter this.

With two sides to every story, I’d love to hear the view of the school on some of the school related AIBUs posted.

English schools are anything BUT strict in their majority.

Just go on any English Parent Expat forum, and see how they are horrified to discover that many other school systems are a lot more rigid and don't spend anywhere near as much time mollycoddling parents and children.

People like to complain in England about the RULES and HOMEWORK, when really there's barely the minimum. They just don't want to parent, and want their precious little darling to be excused from anything.

Just check, English parents now living abroad (which can be anywhere) and dealing with other school systems. In England people think it's strict because of the uniform, or what's left of them

I’m N Irish living in England now (moved here as an adult) and my son is just finishing year one of uni now.

I agree with you, English schools do seem to me to be ridiculously strict in general, especially at secondary school level and especially on attendance. They were fairly strict back in my day too (I went to a grammar and so has my son), but the emphasis was definitely more on behaviour (and uniform), than attendance. In England now the focus seems to be very much on attendance as a primary metric.

In my eyes that’s primarily due to pressure from OFSTED, which then affects things like placement in league tables etc. But also I do think a lot of teachers and heads are genuinely very convinced by the stats around higher school attendance basically having better educational outcomes. And this may well be true, and not simply correlation (honestly I haven’t looked deeply into the stats myself!), but I do think sometimes schools are in danger of forgetting that every child is a unique individual and that as an individual they may well defy the statistics etc.

Honestly, secondary school here was a complete nightmare for my son (who has ADHD and potentially autism also awaiting assessment). And for me as a parent. Especially around GCSE time when I was literally so stressed by dealing with the school and worrying about my son, that I ended up badly burning myself by accident by spilling a pan of boiling water all down my front when cooking while exhausted, sleep-deprived, and upset. My son was at one of the top rated schools in the country, a superselective grammar school as he is extremely bright. Unfortunately I would say this school is not very used to having children with SEN and did not support him properly in this at all. He was very much viewed as being lazy, never cracking open a book outside of lessons, uncaring about deadlines, and generally having an attitude problem and an allergy to hard work, when the truth was he would spend hours and hours at home unfortunately achieving very little when trying to do homework due to overwhelm and “freezing” because of anxiety, he struggled with time management and would genuinely forget homework deadlines etc. The one thing I will say that school did correctly was decide not to keep handing out detentions to him all the time as they were having zero effect on remembering, doing and handing in homework anyway. OK now I think of it they also dealt with an incident where my son punched another student well, in that they did not exclude him because of it, having witnessed what had happened and acknowledging that his behaviour was generally unproblematic and this was very out of character for him; he was very much literally backed into a corner and the other child being persistently aggressive to him and not backing off. He still got detention of course which I did not have a problem with, even if my son viewed that as a terrible injustice 😂

Anyway, I feel the ethos of that school was very much to focus on the very exceptional children already sitting at the top of the class and boost them to unusually spectacular heights, while expecting everyone else to keep up. But anyone who fell by the wayside for whatever reason was pretty much just left by the wayside and written off. Which I had not really expected, having attending secondary school in N I in the 1990s, and being that child always at the top of the class (I’m now a doctor), the focus was very much on trying to help the students who were struggling to catch up with the rest of the class and not students like me at all. Again, I feel this ethos is probably driven by the league tables, students of that school have had some remarkable achievements, but ultimately I felt my son was almost “managed out” of the school. As despite having one of the highest scores in the whole county for the eleven plus, due to SEN which was not well supported or considered, this was not necessarily being reflected in his grades. It didn’t help that he had to drop most of his favourite subjects at GCSE and choose only one of music, art or drama which were his favourite subjects after maths, but continue with some subjects he actively hated and was completely disinterested in. And was eg due to GCSE exams he was not allowed to participate in the school’s summer musical production which he absolutely lived for, and it having been cancelled 2 years before and almost cancelled before being held in a car park the year before due to COVID. He did end up having a degree of EBSA, which I tried very hard to push back against, and he did end up crossing the threshold for “persistent absence” at one point due actually to a combination of having to isolate for COVID when that was still a thing, plus having COVID again when that wasn’t a thing but being genuinely unwell with it with high fever etc, plus having to have some complex intensive dental work at a regional tertiary dental hospital many miles away. Which annoyed me as I was treated as an irresponsible uncaring mother by the school at the time. And he was just absolutely miserable at school then.

Anyway, I moved him to another slightly less prestigious grammar for sixth form (very much a combination of his being “managed out” by the original secondary school at that point as not achieving a handful of 9s for GCSE and bringing the average educational attainment for his year down, and both myself and my son feeling we literally just could not cope mental health-wise with another 2 years at that school). Which made a world of difference. He was pushed far less hard, was better supported for SEN, and was significantly less stressed at school, seemed to have a lot less homework and a lot more free time, and as a result he enjoyed it more, and achieved significantly better than at GCSE. He’s now taking a Maths degree at a really good uni and absolutely thriving there. Interestingly the support at uni level for SEN is impressive, and so much better than at school age. Which seems mad to me!

I agree when I was at school, if my parents needed to take me out of school for a day here or there for a special family celebration etc it was absolutely no problem because I was achieving well at school academically and the teachers knew I was conscientious enough to make sure I’d catch up on anything I missed. Though I think I remember being told to just keep it quiet that they’d said ok 😂

I was never able to take my son out of school for any reason, including at primary school level, with one notable exception. Effectively my abusive ex was able to use the strict school rules and English ethos on attendance to control me and my son via the family court system and make sure I was unable to visit relatives abroad including for big important family events, or in other parts of the UK with different school holidays etc. I still resent that I didn’t have that opportunity, and he’s 19 now! At secondary to be honest especially in GCSE years and beyond I wouldn’t have dreamed of asking though, especially as my son definitely would NOT catch up on whatever he missed despite his best intentions.

The only time I ever really put my foot down over it all was when he was around 8 years old and my brother was getting married in another country (his fiancee’s country of origin). I basically asked for a meeting with the head and begged her personally to reverse the decision not to approve the leave in term time, and explained that unlike for many families, the actual effect of her not approving the leave would not be that it was annoying but ultimately ignorable if you are happy to pay the fines involved from the council (lots of families did this as even taking the fines into account it was often still significantly cheaper to go on holiday in term time). But that we actually would not be able to go, as the court would not back us against the school’s wishes if my abusive ex disagreed, which he would do just to control us and damage my relationship with my family.

She was an amazing head and my son was super happy and achieving brilliantly well in primary school with no SEN diagnosis or support because the school naturally adjustes to whatever he needed as an individual to really thrive eg his form teacher would sing his name when taking register and he would sing back (which cut down on the disruptive singing at other times!) Happily the head did very unusually agree to approve the leave on that occasion, and I remain forever thankful to her, as it made the world of difference to be able to go, especially as my brother has since unexpectedly collapsed and died.

I am genuinely so relieved and so much better able to cope with other life stresses now my son is done with secondary school in England. Thank God genuinely! I’ve actually been super surprised at quite how much I’ve noticed the reduced stress on me as a result, and improvement in my mental health, despite being a bit lonely without him as a single parent (he’s living away at uni). But after my experience I would 100 percent NEVER send my child to Michaela. I found her approach interesting, so have read a few articles about it including interviews with her. And it sounds like a dystopian authoritarian nightmare to me. I loved school because I took genuine delight in learning for learning’s sake, and even I would have absolutely hated it if I’d attended a school like that and genuinely think I’d have ended up depressed. They aren’t even allowed to speak to or walk next to their friends in the corridor between classes, but have to walk single file in silence, how miserable is that?!

What “total nonsense” reasons are children being expelled for?

The stories I read on here tend to show the opposite, repeated rule breaking leading to only relatively minor sanctions.

I dont know OP; DDs secondary was rated badly by offsted, so they brought in a head to fix things. 2 years later there was a mania about keeping your blazer on no matter how hot it was but no improvement in anything anyone would care about. Dd was a top student, I pulled her out as bullying was not improving. Now they are tightening up on home ed im fucking glad i have no more kids in the system.

There’s new guidance coming in in September I believe around uniforms. So hopefully it will be more affordable and less strict in terms of branding.

This. It is cultural. We cannot even expect an entire class on any given day to all have a pen to write with. No work is expected to be caught up. Everything myst be done and provided by the teacher. Parents take little responsibility, including for uniform. You tell parents skirts are too short and it isnt their fault, they cannot control the skirt length while the girls are at school. But fully unrolled they are not even mid-thigh. Parents are providing 15 y/o girls with age 10-11 skirts the creating local facebook groups to rage about schools insisting on tights due to skirt length.

DD high school ridiculously strict. She often gets refused to go to the toilet even on her period. I’ve had to go to the GP just to get her a ‘toilet pass’ so she can go to the toilet! I said she has a blood test next week and teachers accused her of lying and I have to email the school reason why she will miss one morning for the blood test. One girl the teacher accused her of wearing false eyelashes and actually pulled at her eyelashes and pulled some of eyelashes out, it seems to be girls that are picked on constantly - isolation for makeup etc. detentions if 30 seconds late. It’s like a prison camp !

Harsh strict rules over inconsequential things are counterproductive. Battles over dress codes and inflexibility over attendance (for medical reasons or travel) just result in an atmosphere of conflict and shift the focus away from areas that really matter. Most teachers don’t care about nose piercings and what kind of socks the pupils are wearing, as long behaviour is good and pupils are learning.

The excuse that it’s preparing them for life in a professional environment is nonsense. I work in a ‘professional’ field, I have tattoos, piercings and non-natural hair colour, it doesn’t impact my ability to do my job. One if my children was a well behaved, polite, straight-A pupil but was pestered about a nose piercing and hair colour. They now have a degree, masters and a professional job (despite the tattoos and piercings ) . Another of my children was also well behaved but told off about a nose piercing and hair colour, but struggled due to lack of SEND support. They are now getting 2:1/1st marks at Uni.

It’s petty conformist nonsense, and needs to stop.

I am not from UK and I am baffled by the attendance thing too. Especially by the 100% awards. I know no one from when I was at school or now kids at school of my friends and family who would get it. No one. Because when the child is sick they stay at home! You get work send out to you. Obviously. People rarely took kids out for holidays and that waw usually discussed with teachers so the kid could catch up.
And no uniforms. Sounds similar to Finland above. There are lots of small tests through the year so you need to still keep up with learning so your grades keep up.

Well it gives them the ability to expel kids at the drop of a hat for total nonsense, that's a good thing, right?

(sarcasm, obvs)

I'm in Finland, which is at the other end of the spectrum when it comes to strictness - no uniforms or even dress codes, no fines for missing school and holidays are often approved (and in my experience of my oldest's peer group, days off for things like shopping are even approved) but the students are responsible for catching up on their work themselves and they will have to, otherwise they'll fail some of the frequent tests and exams and risk having to retake the entire year.

Missing too much school without good reason will result in a social services referral and again the risk of having to retake the year (happened to one boy in DD's school twice and DD's ex friend will be retaking this year next year as she missed too much school too). DD missed a lot last year and the school really worked with her to get her back to school, counselling and medical care, and it worked.

So seems to me they don't need to be so strict here because if a student is too disruptive or doesn't bother trying, they will get a consequence they really won't want, which is being kept behind.

I’m not sure what point you’re making, NI does have strict formal uniform up until school leaving, England doesn’t.
Many schools in England do not wear shirts and ties at primary, you can’t compare a single school. On average uniforms in England are not that strict compared for other areas of the UK, that was the point I was referring to.

I think this changed for the vast majority of schools a long time ago. My DC wear white shirts and ties with a logo jumper at primary and blazer at secondary, black trousers and shoes - definitely not trainers. They’re not lax on this whatsoever, even down to the style of trousers (not allowed to be skinny fit for example). It’s far stricter now than when I was at school in the 00s.

Also colleges have never enforced uniform, even sixth forms. They’re young adults, uniform would be kind of weird at that stage.

I don't think anyone objects to disruptive behaviour being punished.

The objections are usually to nitpicking over uniforms -or, as has apparently happened in a local academy Trust, soon to feature on Panorama I hear- being sent to isolation for turning up without a pen.

How do they compare when it comes to mental health though?

Yes if England was measured on its own, rather than the UK, we would be right up there nearer the top. If Ireland was measured with NI, their ranking would slide.

I’m Irish educated and my children are British educated ( state primary and private secondary) and I think the best British education is better than Ireland and the worse here is far worse . Which is to be expected I suppose .
alrhough my niece teaches in a DEIS school in an area of high deprivation in Dublin and it sounds grim.

The creation of academy chains combined with a lack of funding in education has led to a huge increase in class sizes. Academies spend a lot of money on CEOs and advisers which leaves less left for the schools. There is a recruitment crisis meaning inexperienced staff are given classes of 30 plus to teach in small spaces with few tools for behaviour management. As a result these academy chains create a one size fits all behaviour policy... And for many staff and students it doesn't work

I am very wary of EEF research. I had cause a few years ago to look in detail, great detail, at their summer born research. It was very politically driven and didnt reflect other research at all accurately. The focus was only of the impact to disadvantaged (using a very narrow definition) children. Thereby immediately failing to consider non-disadvantaged children, who are equally entitled to an education that allows them to achieve their potential.