What exactly is the strictness in English schools actually achieving?

I recall someone in my history class being asked to leave the class as they'd forgotten their GCSE notes - the teacher threw an absolute hissy fit - how dare the student show up to her class without being properly prepared and not even apologise! She banned the student from attending her class until she got an apology.
Reality was the teacher often threw a hissy fit - everyone was terrified of her - especially when she had a hangover (we were all aware of her mood when she wore sunglasses). It was not a surprise to any of us that the student had not approached her to apologise as there would have been a blood bath!!! The student's parent's stood their ground and would not allow their dd to apologise and we were all very impressed, the teacher had to back down and allow the return of the student who was then deliberately ignored. Same teacher had congratulated my mother on parents evening on finally having a child she liked (she taught my 3 sisters) that was me! 😂She was an absolute tyrant - some people should not be allowed near children. She was a bright woman but she was an absolute bitch of a teacher.

That's quite detailed information you have on your dd's secondary school, I'm amazed - how did you access this information at such a detailed level?

English schools are not all the same. My DD's secondary is nothing like the zero tolerance examples here. Nobody is getting detentions or isolations for minor uniform or equipment infractions.
Most students attend and engage in learning, but poor attendance and a minority of pupils are disruptive and defiant. The causes of these issues are multi-faceted and they are not purely the result of zero tolerance environments. Staff invest massive resources in trying to address them, but there arent easy answers.

I think there is a shift in how some people view responsibility. Some parents can be quick to point the finger at teachers if their child doesnt do well rather than examining their child's level of engagement in the classroom and studying at home. I am frankly amazed that so many people seem to think that secondary aged neurotypical students without the challenges of poverty should not be expected to turn up to a lesson with a biro or at least ask politely to borrow one if they forget. Draconian punishments are over the top, but encouranging students to take responsibility for there own learning (part of which is organising their own basic equipment) is part of education. Removing the most basic of expectations to avoid conflicts is setting the bar very low.

I think students should be expected to remember a pen. But I also think they should be able to ask politely to borrow one (either from a friend/classmate or from the school supplies) and not be thrown into detention or isolation.

If you forget a pen at work, someone will lend you one.

Not meeting deadlines for homework is different as you have to respect the teacher's time - ie they may have planned to mark it on a certain day- and you also need to learn to meet deadlines for the workplace, so that is different and ultimately if someone isn't doing their homework, there should be consequences (though again, the homework should be meaningful and not just set for the sake of it or because the Tiger Mummies are demanding it).

I think students should be expected to remember a pen. But I also think they should be able to ask politely to borrow one (either from a friend/classmate or from the school supplies) and not be thrown into detention or isolation.

If you forget a pen at work, someone will lend you one.

Not meeting deadlines for homework is different as you have to respect the teacher's time - ie they may have planned to mark it on a certain day- and you also need to learn to meet deadlines for the workplace, so that is different and ultimately if someone isn't doing their homework, there should be consequences (though again, the homework should be meaningful and not just set for the sake of it or because the Tiger Mummies are demanding it).

English schools are not all the same. My DD's secondary is nothing like the zero tolerance examples here. Nobody is getting detentions or isolations for minor uniform or equipment infractions.
Most students attend and engage in learning, but poor attendance and a minority of pupils are disruptive and defiant. The causes of these issues are multi-faceted and they are not purely the result of zero tolerance environments. Staff invest massive resources in trying to address them, but there arent easy answers.

I think there is a shift in how some people view responsibility. Some parents can be quick to point the finger at teachers if their child doesnt do well rather than examining their child's level of engagement in the classroom and studying at home. I am frankly amazed that so many people seem to think that secondary aged neurotypical students without the challenges of poverty should not be expected to turn up to a lesson with a biro or at least ask politely to borrow one if they forget. Draconian punishments are over the top, but encouranging students to take responsibility for there own learning (part of which is organising their own basic equipment) is part of education. Removing the most basic of expectations to avoid conflicts is setting the bar very low.

There are relatively few workplaces that require people to wear suits full time, unless they are client facing (and even then it's not necessarily viewed as essential). Dress codes now also are very wide ranging.

Uniforms are really pointless. People who have been in non-uniform schools manage perfectly well if they subsequently go into occupations requiring uniforms or very strict dress codes: it's not something you need practice in.

Lots of people wear suit jackets which are practically the same thing. Most workplaces have a dress code and some an actual uniform. Uniform isn’t a bad thing, being smart and presentable in a professional setting (of which school is) should be promoted.

Are schools run by the national government in Ireland then?

@countrylife00 Of course home plays a role in that too, as well as wider national and even global issues/politics. The recent report about the rise in NEETS emphasises how children and young people have not been prioritised in policy in any area since 2010 and that has a lot to answer for.

But we are talking about schools here. And adolescent mental health dips hugely compared to primary age, so we are talking about secondary school age, after age 11. Not that I think all kids have reached their full potential academically or in any other way and should be written off at 11 anyway (yes I’m a bit of a hypocrite for sending my son to a grammar in that case, but I’m in an area where the choices for state schooling are excellent grammars or failing academies).

I know a lot of children who have been fine in primary but had serious mental health struggles in secondary, and it’s not always due to their home lives. In fact many of these teens have very happy and supportive home lives. I’m a GP and I see a lot of teens really struggling with their mental health these days, and often for no obvious deep reason, as would have been the case when I first started out eg undisclosed sexual abuse or severe bullying etc. These days teens are super unhappy, and it genuinely often seems to revolve around school. To be fair these teens are primarily SEN students or likely undiagnosed SEN students who are just not coping with what is expected of them at secondary school in modern UK.

I’ve been a GP a long time, and it’s not something that used to be a thing I would see at all, but since the few years in the lead up to the pandemic it started to be a thing, and really took off during the pandemic once schools reopened, and has actually continued to escalate as an issue ever since it seems.

I just think as well as SEN being appropriately and genuinely addressed (which may well mean accepting that mainstream won’t work for these children, but then we need to establish more appropriate schools for academically able SEN students too rather than lumping them in with students with true learning disabilities who are unlikely to eg sit A-levels), teens in general need more downtime, less academic pressure, less authoritarianism at school and actually meaning and not just saying that academic grades aren’t the be-all and end-all, and that balance, even at times of extra pressure during exam years, is needed.

I am in total agreement with you over OFSTED achieving nothing except stressing everybody involved out! A bit like CQC in my profession.

This is another thing! Fines being set by the local authority??? Like, if our local county council got involved in our children’s schooling, and tried issuing fines here they’d be laughed out of it. It’s just a preposterous thought!

I’m unclear what uniform’s even for. In the modern workplace, who the hell wears blazers? I’m surprised schools don’t still require bowler hats and spats.

My DS was at a strict academy when Steve Hilton was skateboarding into 10 Downing Street in his board shorts.

Irish summer holidays start weeks earlier than English schools so less need for a term time holiday?

@countrylife00 Of course home plays a role in that too, as well as wider national and even global issues/politics. The recent report about the rise in NEETS emphasises how children and young people have not been prioritised in policy in any area since 2010 and that has a lot to answer for.

But we are talking about schools here. And adolescent mental health dips hugely compared to primary age, so we are talking about secondary school age, after age 11. Not that I think all kids have reached their full potential academically or in any other way and should be written off at 11 anyway (yes I’m a bit of a hypocrite for sending my son to a grammar in that case, but I’m in an area where the choices for state schooling are excellent grammars or failing academies).

I know a lot of children who have been fine in primary but had serious mental health struggles in secondary, and it’s not always due to their home lives. In fact many of these teens have very happy and supportive home lives. I’m a GP and I see a lot of teens really struggling with their mental health these days, and often for no obvious deep reason, as would have been the case when I first started out eg undisclosed sexual abuse or severe bullying etc. These days teens are super unhappy, and it genuinely often seems to revolve around school. To be fair these teens are primarily SEN students or likely undiagnosed SEN students who are just not coping with what is expected of them at secondary school in modern UK.

I’ve been a GP a long time, and it’s not something that used to be a thing I would see at all, but since the few years in the lead up to the pandemic it started to be a thing, and really took off during the pandemic once schools reopened, and has actually continued to escalate as an issue ever since it seems.

I just think as well as SEN being appropriately and genuinely addressed (which may well mean accepting that mainstream won’t work for these children, but then we need to establish more appropriate schools for academically able SEN students too rather than lumping them in with students with true learning disabilities who are unlikely to eg sit A-levels), teens in general need more downtime, less academic pressure, less authoritarianism at school and actually meaning and not just saying that academic grades aren’t the be-all and end-all, and that balance, even at times of extra pressure during exam years, is needed.

I am in total agreement with you over OFSTED achieving nothing except stressing everybody involved out! A bit like CQC in my profession.

@Differentforgirls ah thanks! And to be fair my sister probably wouldn’t agree with me that she could have been any more stressed than she was then if it were OFSTED 😂 But as a GP I have had teachers coming to me more than once with suicidal ideation over OFSTED inspections, needing time off work to cope etc. Which really seems a step too far!