What exactly is the strictness in English schools actually achieving?

I spoke to one of my dd's friend's, lovely kid not very academic but very creative. She attended a school that was awarded Sunday Times School of the Year!
She told me she really enjoyed science - it was a surprise to me as she'd struggled at primary, she said had a lovely science teacher who wasn't at all bothered about teaching them science - was happy for them to have a chat about their social lives - what they were doing at the weekend etc. I asked her why she wasn't annoyed that she wasted 2 hours of her life every week and would come out with nothing? She had to be in science, why didn't she expect more from her teacher - she hadn't really thought about it. She expected nothing from school - they didn't value her. It really depressed the fuck out of me that she had accepted this. This was happening at a top school in our country - they are incredibly strict on uniform - appearance is everything but the parents pay a lot for tutoring because the teaching doesn't come up to scratch.
I know parents at my dd's school also paid a lot for tutoring because I was reassured by the sixth form student that showed us around that if my kids struggled they could always get a tutor - years later the teacher asked for hands on how many were being tutored in dd's class - 2/3 of the kids put up their hands. This is an easy school - the kids are well behaved but a lot of the teachers just can't be arsed - there's no pen shortage.

I absolutely appreciate the challenges teachers have in classrooms.

I just don't understand how giving a child a detention because they have 9 pens available to them, but only 2 (and not 3) red biros helps the classroom or individual children learn? I really am all ears because I'd love to understand the logic.

What is quite clear is that many parents simply don’t appreciate the bone-crushing tedium that is getting an average class to the point where they will actually do any work. Kids rocking up late, kids not having their book, kids not having a pen, kids simply pissing around and not getting out the book or the pen they do have. Because they don’t want to do any work.

The vast majority of school routines are to get kids to the point where they will do the work. Parents found this in lockdown when schools were setting work but ‘I just can’t get her to do it’. Like teachers are magic or something. No, it’s the huge amount of work schools put in.

My kids always had everything they needed - but it was quite an effort to ensure that happened, I can well believe less organised households would struggle. Good to hear that there are new rules against the branded shit. One of the local rules still doesn't allow girls to wear trousers - it's leafy suburb territory and no one likes to create a fuss, to be accused of not supporting the school and risk the teachers picking on their kids...so on it goes.

New rules are they can’t have that much branded shit so hopefully that will be fixed.

However, you’re blaming the uniform for the lack of pen. My school doesn’t have draconian uniform, kids can even wear trainers, and there are still lots of kids who don’t bring a pen. Because they can’t be arsed and it’s not important to them. They always bring their phones…

I forgot about all that shit too! Winter shirt with tie had to be tucked in or detention and summer shirt with no tie wasn't allowed to be tucked in or they got detention and the bloody coloured pens, then the make-up, dd had a birth mark on her face that she carefully covered up with make up and that was a big fuss, that needed special permission and it was discussed in front of the whole class - honestly I should pipe down and breathe, it's 5 years since my kids left that school and I can still be stirred into the fury over their stupid rules.
We had to travel to a special shop to get dd school shoes - she had the skinniest feet you've ever seen - one shoe shop in the South East of England - we used to go there keeping our fingers crossed that they'd have a pair - not a nice pair just a black pair that fitted her. So she wore Mary Janes to school in all weathers - because of the school rules. Trainers or ankle boots would have been more appropriate footwear for a 1 mile walk there and back but no - school rules and they were not allowed to wear something different on the way to and from school either. Jesus my bloody pressure must be up!
And if they had pens when they went to school on top of everything else I think they deserved a big funking gold star!

Natsku

noblegiraffe has highlighted the issue and the only thing that she has missed out is the* *fuckwittery around not having a pen.
Whilst its true that most pupils quietly ask their friends or the teacher far too many turn it in to a massive drama, huffying around the room, just getting a pen off the person in the furthest place away from them.
Or encouraging them to throw the equipment to them.
And its not just the pupils that 'forget' to hand the pen back, after all if they took the pen they should have it not only for their next lesson but the next one with you, but they rarely do. Its the willful destruction of property that the teacher has had to pay for.
I once calculated the amount of money that I was spending on stationary for other people's children. It came to several hundreds of pounds per school year.

A friend of mine's child recently started at secondary. Every morning they have an inspection to make sure they have the right number of the right colour biros. If they only have say 2 instead of 3 red biros they get a detention. Never mind the 2 they do have, or the [insert specified number of specified colour biros] that they do have. They have to wear a shirt and blazer regardless of the season, which means that they're freezing in the winter and boiling in the summer, because wearing a jumper underneath is detention-able, as is taking the blazer off. It's utterly bonkers. How on earth is that supporting learning or preparing anyone for work? No workplace operates like that! The anxiety that it's created in a child about going to school and getting things wrong is off the scale. And that child loved school before this.

I was at secondary school in the 80s and 90s. I went to the local grammar and had friends at the secondary moderns. My school was fairly relaxed about uniform, hair colour, make-up, jewellery etc., whereas the sec moderns were super strict about things like that. Wildly different expectations based on factors not remotely to do with intelligence/capability. Just about embedding compliance.

Quite a few years back we went to the PwC Christmas Party in Embarkment Place - it was that transitionary period where people wore suits most days and Friday's were dress down. What a bloody state the staff looked - dress code was smart casual - I'd seen them in a suit - that was easy dressing, hard to go wrong - but they massively failed at smart casual and if school wish to help students with their future sartorial choices - smart casual that would be a great place to start - because we ain't going back to suits in a hurry. But we all know it's nothing to do with preparing them for adult life - it's just another show of control that doesn't work.

Well - you don't get much choice - most them are expensive!

For sport alone - we had to buy branded socks ffs - I think they were £14 a pair! A leotard for gymnastics, branded skort, branded sport's shirt, jogging bottoms, (you didn't need to buy the branded fleece or rain coat - but your child would have to do sport outside in the winter and the school didn't mind if they were cold and wet). Football boots, all white trainers - couldn't have a colour on them. Boys didn't have to wear the leotard but they had to have a rugby shirt - the branded school t shirt wasn't appropriate - look I'm boring myself with this list...so I'm not going into the daft every day shit they expected the kids to have, it's not surprising the pen gets missed out when the uniform always seems so much more important that education and no we couldn't chose another school - the schools got together and agreed on all this shit - they were very proud of their consortium.

100% I also feel it’s important for kids to learn how to present themselves.

Schools seem fine with scuffed up, muddy shoes, tatty clothing and greasy hair, as long as the uniform rules are met. Some kids (including from affluent families) look a right state.

As you say, it’s possible to dress and present very well on a tight budget, if you look after items (e.g. clean shoes) and know how to dress well. If schools are to teach anything about dress, IMHO that should be it. At my state comp in the 70s we were taught how to polish shoes, iron a shirt, sew on buttons etc. Every time I iron a shirt now, all those years later, I still think of how I was taught.

I think it’s also the case that far too many school leavers go on to college in Ireland. It’s in many ways an extension of school at first, and I think this is a great disservice to students, encouraged to go on because the transition isnt that hair-raising.
I’ve always been against the (eternally popular) Irish system of not specialising for the Leaving cert as we did in GB for A Levels: it means you’ve students still unsure what they actually want to study at third level, going on to college for Law, say, and spending the first year either lost at sea in the subject, or wishing they had instead opted for History or Physics, etc.
The first year acts, in effect, as a sieve through which many students belatedly isolate the subject they actually shine in.

A complete waste of an important year, which in GB is intense study from day one, in a subject you'd already been honing for three years at school.

Obviously uniforms shouldn’t be expensive.

At my eldest DC’s academy, there were more kids in ‘isolation’ than there were in the classroom.

Do they really? And do they want the expensive branded school uniforms and the over the top rules like velcro shoes looking too much like trainers, when no other bloody school shoe will fit a child's difficult foot.

Everyone knows who the poor kids are - we did at school and I recently asked ds did he know who the poor kids were at his school and he did too - it's not a level playing field - that must be a certain kind of adult's view of the world. Getting kids to wear their own clothes would mean parents didn't have to buy two sets for each growing child.
Jeans and a t shirt and a sweatshirt isn't beyond any parent, easy to pick up at Primark/supermarket/second hand shop and easy to continue wearing outside school. Same with shoes, parents should only have to buy one pair. Not a school pair and an out of school pair.

Well they must find a way to make it work in my country because schools are legally obliged to provide all necessary equipment for learning. My DD tells me in upper school they get given a pencil at the start of the year and hasn't experienced anyone kicking up a fuss about forgetting theirs (and her class isn't exactly well behaved so its not an unusually compliant group)

The majority of parents in England want school uniforms.

I’m not aware of research proving this, but maybe you do? All the research I’ve seen is pretty inconclusive or mixed.

I guess it depends what your background is. If people are from a military background or have to wear uniform for work, I guess they see uniform as part of the world of work. However, in most professional workplaces, there’s no uniform. So, IMHO the sooner young people learn to choose appropriate clothing for themselves, the better.

IMHO, brogues and blazers are not appropriate dress for 11 year old children, who should be encouraged to exercise outside during breaks. Research shows uniform can cause a gender disparity in exercise: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy3vnr5yllo.

As I said earlier, most European countries don’t have school uniform in state schools. So, it’s certainly not essential for behaviour, any more than it is in most workplaces.

As for creating a level playing field, I wholly disagree with that. The huge cost of uniform is prohibitive for many families, as numerous research studies have shown. Often, there’s only one supplier of the branded items, so they have a monopoly. Affluent pupils have expensive shoes and new items as they grow, whereas poorer kids don’t and have to come to school in ill-fitting and tatty hand-me-downs. If the objective of uniform is to create a level playing field, surely schools should provide them for free.

Sorry OP, I haven’t read the full thread, but just to say that school refusal (or emotionally based school avoidance as it’s often called) is certainly not ‘alien’ to Ireland. It’s a growing problem, especially since Covid, and rates are higher than they’ve ever been.

My own DS dropped out well before Covid, he was in primary school at the time and never returned. He has autism and other issues and unfortunately we couldn’t find anywhere he was adequately supported. He had a breakdown and never went back.

There are articles in our papers every year about how Irish schools are letting down those with SN…about children without school places as well as those who find it too difficult to attend. There was a huge outcry earlier this year when the Dept tried to cut down on SNA support in mainstream schools. They stepped back from doing this but SN education is still a huge mess with many children not being able to access the curriculum effectively.

I think you’re lucky if this is not on your radar re Irish schools. The debacle over SNA provision earlier this year was hugely upsetting for many families.

@ThrallsWife But you only had half your class show up - so the strict rules are not working in your school.
The relationship between the school, the pupils and the parents is absolutely broken - they are all exhausted by them. When my kids were at school it felt like every email I got from the school was about another pointless crap rule. The rule that caused me to block the HT was when she gleefully announced that she was allowing kids with an afro to have a fade (that must have been 5 kids in the entire school) because she was being modern and inclusive. She then proceeded to detail exactly how short each section of the fade could be in millimetres and if it didn't meet her or any teachers expectations and they would not discuss or be challenged on the measurement and that child would be put in isolation until their hair grew. What a way to communicate to people, still it didn't surprise me - that was what we expected - I had had enough - she was power crazy.

Impossible for your kids to learn respect when it only goes one way.

So, half my class was missing today with mysterious illnesses, and several others were openly admitting to a mere 2h sleep because they were watching the world cup last night. I'm not even exaggerating - 13 missing in a GCSE class of 24 and two trying to sleep. I wonder how that will figure into my progress rates, which can affect pay progression. This is not an isolated incident. Here in England, school has been seen as optional pretty much since Covid - hence the strict rules.

To the PP suggesting we give out pens - that's all well and good. Until you ask for the new pen back at the end of the lesson and get it back in pieces, if at all. Taking pens apart, smearing the ink everywhere, pushing the pen into paper until it explodes are all favourites. Here in England we give out pens, coloured pens, rulers, pencils, rubbers - all for free and watching them get destroyed daily. A box of 50 pens lasts me 6 weeks. Kids don't value what they get given for free. Books get defaced, writing books have pages and pages torn out of them. I had to buy my own when I was at school abroad. They were neat and kept that way because I understood their value. Primary schools around here now don't allow kids to bring in their own pencil cases to get around the issue (and that of theft and arguments), meaning kids are even less prepared for secondary school.

And of course it is disruptive. Lesson 1 today. I start the lesson (having handed out materials to students at the start, then pens to those who asked). I have 2 students coming in late. I needed to register them. Both need to be given their class materials, then one asks for a pen. Repeated again as soon as I had everyone settled with another 3 coming in late. And then again a third time when the last few sauntered in. 10mins of my lesson - 17% - lost to lateness and pens alone. That's a daily thing.

I have twins - they were in the same class. They both did the homework. Dd accidentally picked up ds’s homework and brought it into school, ds clearly forgot to bring his homework. Dd had to do an afterschool detention. I think the more annoying thing for dd was that at the start of the year the teacher had promised to give them all one chance at forgetting their homework - he did not give dd that chance on the very last week of A level teaching, despite her saying it was the first time she had ever not brought in her homework. He emailed me to explain her detention, I replied in a polite but not very supportive way! Not surprising the teacher didn’t show up for the detention. There’s some good ones - buts there’s still plenty of petty shites.

You are assuming that giving the kid a pen is the solution to the no pen problem,

I'm your 'ideal teacher' here. A couple of months ago I bought a massive box of pens out of my own money. I've got about a half of them left. I lend pens out every lesson. I wasn't getting them back so now I write the name of the students I lend them to on the board. And at the start of the lesson, I have Tom asking for a pen so I get him a pen, give him the pen, write his name on the board. Then Harry says he also needs a pen, same again. Then ten minutes later I notice that Bob hasn't done any work. 'I don't have a pen'. So I go back to my desk, get another pen, bring it back, then tell him to do some work. Then I forget to write Bob's name on the board, and my pen is never seen again.

Then at the end of the lesson I have to chase Tom and Harry for my pens back. And during all this time I could have been teaching.

And then another teacher uses my classroom, lends out a whole bunch of my pens that I bought out of my own money, and they just disappear into the ether.

Do you know what would solve this? A slight bit of according to you 'unnecessary conflict' that meant that those kids brought their own fucking pens.

That is the issue, teachers being held responsible for the failings of students. Here students are responsible for their own grades, if they fail they face the consequences.