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AIBU?

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AIBU to point out that the most important duty of the UK government is to maintain the defence of the country?

133 replies

KateSixer · 11/06/2026 12:52

The shameful, cowardly and extremely short sighted decision of Starmer and Reeves not to properly fund the defence budget has led to the resignation of the Secretary of State for Defence.

Honestly it's traitorous.

OP posts:
Papyrophile · 11/06/2026 20:15

HangryBrickShark · 11/06/2026 18:11

They were talking about this on GB News earlier. Saying that our subs were really old and because they are out on manoeuvres for so long they don't get the basic care or servicing that they require and some if them are in a dreadful state.

To say nothing of the ridiculous demands on the submariners who crew them. A friend's son is a submariner. The deployment weeks at sea (out of touch with your friends and family, because you are on deployment) are getting longer.

All our ships are ageing and the fleet is shrinking because it costs too much to keep the elderly ones going. The Type 23 Frigate Class was supposed to have been retired and replaced but the Type 45s that replaced them were built down to a price. And most have spent their time since launch up against a wall. Until recently, DH's company was involved in repairing and refitting some of the T23 gear, and there were 18 or so of them. Now there are six (6) left.

Don't mention aircraft carriers. A political pork barrel decision to buy Gordon Brown votes in Scotland. And as successful a shipbuilding project as the new CalMac ferries.

Anotherdayanotherexcuse · 11/06/2026 18:58

myrtletrotter · 11/06/2026 18:19

Who do you think are really riling people up and causing dissent? It's classic, sow seeds of dissent and public disorder....
China runs TikTok and controls the algorithms and what we see in the west, which is a very different from what the Chinese see.

Cyber policy etc is funded by the Home Office and cyber crime managed both the HO and the NCA.

Your point about what Tiktok and other media show in the UK is a good one. How any government manages that is a separate discussion to the size of the Defence budget though.

myrtletrotter · 11/06/2026 18:19

Anotherdayanotherexcuse · 11/06/2026 14:48

Those who are behind cyber attacks and the riots are two different groups of people unless you're suggesting that they're one and the same....

The RAF already have a drone presence in mainland Europe btw and Ukraine bloody well ought to be teaching us since its British money that's also funding it.

MoD has been underfunded for years and has been profligate with the budget it has ie the overspend on Ajax. Perhaps if they spent their money more wisely it wouldn't be such an issue.

Who do you think are really riling people up and causing dissent? It's classic, sow seeds of dissent and public disorder....
China runs TikTok and controls the algorithms and what we see in the west, which is a very different from what the Chinese see.

HangryBrickShark · 11/06/2026 18:11

KateSixer · 11/06/2026 12:52

The shameful, cowardly and extremely short sighted decision of Starmer and Reeves not to properly fund the defence budget has led to the resignation of the Secretary of State for Defence.

Honestly it's traitorous.

They were talking about this on GB News earlier. Saying that our subs were really old and because they are out on manoeuvres for so long they don't get the basic care or servicing that they require and some if them are in a dreadful state.

EstoyRobandoSuCasa · 11/06/2026 18:07

Nanda66 · 11/06/2026 17:18

I’m seriously considering not paying my tax bill next month and I’ve been a taxpayer, paying willingly and on time, for over 40 years. I’m so sick of this government spending money on the wrong things. They need to stop chasing votes and cut the benefits bill. The lifting of the 2 child cap was a disgrace.

I don’t agree with this one. Children shouldn’t be denied the basics in order to teach their parents a lesson.

EstoyRobandoSuCasa · 11/06/2026 18:04

Long-term, shrink the housing benefits bill by increasing social housing. I would also stop outsourcing so much of the social care budget - it's obscene we are handing children and elderly off to private providers who are happy to charge 000's but consistently fail inspections and safety checks. I would go back to more council-run provision, perhaps even get councils to pool their resources large-scale projects.

I’m all for this. Care providers have local authorities over a barrel, especially regarding residential placements for children with complex needs. They can name their price, knowing that in many cases, local authorities have no other options whatsoever.

Deafnotdumb · 11/06/2026 17:24

We need to rebuild the Forces. We're looking at 30+ years of neglect, in a world where drones have reshaped the battlefield and we can't rely on America.

It needs to be paid for. I suspect it will be a mix of capital borrowing, future tax rises and trimming in other areas.

If it's borrowing: our debt servicing costs are already at 8% of expenditure. Future tax rises? Good luck with that: it's already at 38% of national income. That leaves us with cutting budget from other areas. The only one where it will make a difference is health or welfare.I can't see the backbenchers agreeing to cuts.

Rachel Reeves raised NI to fund services, pinned her hopes on supply-side adjustments and infrastructure to push up productivity. Businesses were already struggling from high inflation, then the iran war happened, causing energy prices to rise even further.

If I had to choose, I would:

  • restructure the tax system to get rid of the cliff edges. Make it easier at the bottom and the top to earn more. At the moment, people are hovering under the 16 hours cap for tax credits (because of the clawback rates) and the 100k limit (the 60% tax trap). We need to stop punishing people for doing well! Ironically, this would bring in more tax in the long run as people earn more.
  • I would scrap council tax in favour of a land value tax. It works well in other countries and would work here. It also unlocks more money for councils that can be used to address the systemic money pits (housing and social care).
  • Change the triple-lock to a double-lock pledge for pensions. It did it's job in getting pensions up to a reasonable level, but the rises are ratcheting ever higher whilst our over-60s population increase and the tax base shrinks.
  • Look at a time-limited increase on VAT.
  • Long-term, shrink the housing benefits bill by increasing social housing. I would also stop outsourcing so much of the social care budget - it's obscene we are handing children and elderly off to private providers who are happy to charge 000's but consistently fail inspections and safety checks. I would go back to more council-run provision, perhaps even get councils to pool their resources large-scale projects.
Nanda66 · 11/06/2026 17:18

I’m seriously considering not paying my tax bill next month and I’ve been a taxpayer, paying willingly and on time, for over 40 years. I’m so sick of this government spending money on the wrong things. They need to stop chasing votes and cut the benefits bill. The lifting of the 2 child cap was a disgrace.

rellylivesthere · 11/06/2026 17:15

quote 'Miliband refused to be moved from Energy in the Autumn reshuffle.'
But Starmer is PM. What does that say about Starmer that he is unable to fire Miliband? PMs have always been able to fire at will. I honestly think his cop out over North Sea oil saying it was up to Miliband not him, is one of the many things which brought about the drubbing in the local elections.
What does Miliband have on Starmer I wonder?

Idstillratherbepaddleboarding · 11/06/2026 17:15

Anotherdayanotherexcuse · 11/06/2026 15:16

The RAF has chartered private aircraft as well as military transport to evacuate/repatriate and move it's people and families as far back as the 1960s.

Perhaps but they had clearly planned to use their own aircraft which you can therefore assume would be more cost effective but they weren’t able to due to lack of resources. That’s caused a delay in getting my brother and whoever else is going out by a week and therefore possibly a delay in getting people back home by a week or a lack of service there while they wait for staff to arrive. In any case, it’s not very efficient!

MissConductUS · 11/06/2026 17:14

EstoyRobandoSuCasa · 11/06/2026 17:09

Year ago, I met our (then) MP at an event about nuclear missiles and asked him why, instead of renewing Trident, we couldn't have missile shields instead. He said that crazy as it sounded, it would increase the risk of us being attacked. Even though we would have the shields to protect us. I have to admit that I didn't really understand 😂

Edited

It's because any missile defense system can be overwhelmed by a large enough attack. If you have no ability to strike back, there's no deterrence.

TheShyPeachKoala · 11/06/2026 17:13

Walkyrie · 11/06/2026 12:54

YANBU. But, every penny must go on benefits because if we spend money on defence then ‘we have money for bombs but not feeding people’ etc

People can feed themselves!! It doesn't need the government to wipe the backsides of those who won't work. Stopping their benefits would focus their mind but our traitorous government are hellbent on securing their future voter base only.

Papyrophile · 11/06/2026 17:11

Miliband refused to be moved from Energy in the Autumn reshuffle. He's a zealot, and a barrier to change, although I would concede that net zero should create new industries and new jobs long term and that the UK is well-situated geographically to adopt multiple renewable energy sources: tidal power is an obvious one.

Agree that benefits increases should lag inflation, to incentivise work. And the cap on public sector pension contributions but maybe not as low as 10%. Many public sector jobs are not particularly well-paid because the pension is good.

EstoyRobandoSuCasa · 11/06/2026 17:09

Year ago, I met our (then) MP at an event about nuclear missiles and asked him why, instead of renewing Trident, we couldn't have missile shields instead. He said that crazy as it sounded, it would increase the risk of us being attacked. Even though we would have the shields to protect us. I have to admit that I didn't really understand 😂

caringcarer · 11/06/2026 16:56

Labour waste toouch money on Netflix bloody zero. Never mind the rest of the world foes what is best for their own country. That and over generous welfare benefits will bankrupt the UK. No need for an above inflation pay rise for UC claimants. Government also spends toouch money on CS pension contributions. There should be a cap of 10 percent employer contribution.

MissConductUS · 11/06/2026 16:49

BIossomtoes · 11/06/2026 16:37

I think if a minister has resigned over it and the two most obvious candidates to replace them are of exactly the same view, as well as the heads of all the armed forces, it would be wise to accept they know what they’re talking about.

And the Strategic Defense Review done in 2025 was conducted independently of the MoD.

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-10406/

Persephonia1966 · 11/06/2026 16:43

EasternStandard · 11/06/2026 16:33

Yep but it’s not unusual for mn

Yes but a lot of the measures that would be needed to prevent some of the types of attacks described don't come under defence spending. E.g. putting down more offshore cable, increasing IT security etc comes out of different budgets to defence. We need to spend more on defence as well. But the wider range of potential attacks mean it isn't just defence.

BIossomtoes · 11/06/2026 16:37

AmberTigerEyes · 11/06/2026 16:32

Government departments always wanting more money isn’t the same as justifying the need for more money. Tell me, has any part of the government ever submitted a budget calling for less money? The answer is never.

I think if a minister has resigned over it and the two most obvious candidates to replace them are of exactly the same view, as well as the heads of all the armed forces, it would be wise to accept they know what they’re talking about.

EasternStandard · 11/06/2026 16:33

KateSixer · 11/06/2026 16:20

Wow, I am surprised by the flippancy some of these responses. I'd like to make these points:

First, the primary duty of government is to keep the country safe from external threat. While this has been the case for centuries the nature of the threat has changed over time.

We may not longer be at such risk of being invaded but we might, for instance, be at the risk of our banks being hacked by Russians and individuals money being stolen en masse. Or our telecoms networks taken down. I think it's hard to imagine the disruption and panic that would engender. And it's not so far fetched.

Second, what prevents bad actor countries doing this to others are two things. Preparedness and deterrence. That we have taken steps to make it very hard to do these (and other things) and that the consequences that would befall the bad actor country in retaliation if they did it to us would be equally if not more painful.

As an American president once said "speak softly and carry a big stick".

Right now I worry that our preparedness is weak (remember M&S last year - imagine the same affecting every bank) and I know our deterrence is weak.

Third, one point that has not come up above is how under-investing in defence makes us more not less vulnerable to nuclear war. Nuclear war is supposed to be a last and unthinkable resort against existential threat. By reducing conventional defence, the point at which a threat becomes existential is reduced. So reducing defence spending reduces the nuclear threshold. Dangerous for all of us.

Fourth, some posters have been very ready to see this through a party political lens. It is true and equally reprehensible that previous governments have not dealt with this issue. What makes this particularly traitorous by Labour though, to use the word I used earlier, is that this was a set piece opportunity to correct previous errors and it looks like they are going to just duck it. I think that is a fundamental dereliction of their basic duty.

Fifth, other posters have pointed to waste in the MoD. I agree with this too. As with all our public services they have been asked to do too much and broaden themselves from their core mission.

I'd also readily agree that along with our other public services the MoD is hideously inefficient and atrociously managed. Fundamental reform is needed across the MoD, NHS, police, courts service and so on. Labour are ducking this too.

Finally, I have been surprised by there being so many comments about benefits. I don't want to turn this into a thread about benefits but it is very surprising to me that people don't see that the ability to have a generous benefits system is the result of having a strong, safe country that has a solid legal system, is attractive to business and a place where people want to raise their families.

The long term assured ability to choose to pay generous benefits is a consequence of a secure economically successful state. If we do not have both continued security and sufficient continued economic success to make it affordable then cuts to benefits are inevitable whether people like it or not.

Currently, factually, we certainly do not have the second of those things and are at risk of not having the first either.

Dangers ahead!

Yep but it’s not unusual for mn

AmberTigerEyes · 11/06/2026 16:32

BIossomtoes · 11/06/2026 16:29

It is justified. There’s nothing wrong with the list as evidenced by the two natural fore runners to replace Healey having exactly the same view as him. The issue is paying for it.

Government departments always wanting more money isn’t the same as justifying the need for more money. Tell me, has any part of the government ever submitted a budget calling for less money? The answer is never.

BIossomtoes · 11/06/2026 16:29

AmberTigerEyes · 11/06/2026 16:26

We made a defence deal with the EU to pool our resources so we don’t need the full Santa wish list the defence secretary asked for but could not justify.

It is justified. There’s nothing wrong with the list as evidenced by the two natural fore runners to replace Healey having exactly the same view as him. The issue is paying for it.

AmberTigerEyes · 11/06/2026 16:29

We may not longer be at such risk of being invaded but we might, for instance, be at the risk of our banks being hacked by Russians and individuals money being stolen en masse. Or our telecoms networks taken down.

Is that not what MI5 (Intelligence services under the Home Office ) guard against? Not MoD?

AmberTigerEyes · 11/06/2026 16:26

We made a defence deal with the EU to pool our resources so we don’t need the full Santa wish list the defence secretary asked for but could not justify.

rellylivesthere · 11/06/2026 16:23

Thinking about it, the nuclear deterrent is what has allowed our various Governments to cut back on the numbers of actual troops/facilities etc. They have taken it too far and we need to change our approach.

KateSixer · 11/06/2026 16:20

Wow, I am surprised by the flippancy some of these responses. I'd like to make these points:

First, the primary duty of government is to keep the country safe from external threat. While this has been the case for centuries the nature of the threat has changed over time.

We may not longer be at such risk of being invaded but we might, for instance, be at the risk of our banks being hacked by Russians and individuals money being stolen en masse. Or our telecoms networks taken down. I think it's hard to imagine the disruption and panic that would engender. And it's not so far fetched.

Second, what prevents bad actor countries doing this to others are two things. Preparedness and deterrence. That we have taken steps to make it very hard to do these (and other things) and that the consequences that would befall the bad actor country in retaliation if they did it to us would be equally if not more painful.

As an American president once said "speak softly and carry a big stick".

Right now I worry that our preparedness is weak (remember M&S last year - imagine the same affecting every bank) and I know our deterrence is weak.

Third, one point that has not come up above is how under-investing in defence makes us more not less vulnerable to nuclear war. Nuclear war is supposed to be a last and unthinkable resort against existential threat. By reducing conventional defence, the point at which a threat becomes existential is reduced. So reducing defence spending reduces the nuclear threshold. Dangerous for all of us.

Fourth, some posters have been very ready to see this through a party political lens. It is true and equally reprehensible that previous governments have not dealt with this issue. What makes this particularly traitorous by Labour though, to use the word I used earlier, is that this was a set piece opportunity to correct previous errors and it looks like they are going to just duck it. I think that is a fundamental dereliction of their basic duty.

Fifth, other posters have pointed to waste in the MoD. I agree with this too. As with all our public services they have been asked to do too much and broaden themselves from their core mission.

I'd also readily agree that along with our other public services the MoD is hideously inefficient and atrociously managed. Fundamental reform is needed across the MoD, NHS, police, courts service and so on. Labour are ducking this too.

Finally, I have been surprised by there being so many comments about benefits. I don't want to turn this into a thread about benefits but it is very surprising to me that people don't see that the ability to have a generous benefits system is the result of having a strong, safe country that has a solid legal system, is attractive to business and a place where people want to raise their families.

The long term assured ability to choose to pay generous benefits is a consequence of a secure economically successful state. If we do not have both continued security and sufficient continued economic success to make it affordable then cuts to benefits are inevitable whether people like it or not.

Currently, factually, we certainly do not have the second of those things and are at risk of not having the first either.

Dangers ahead!

OP posts: