AIBU to question John Lewis advert and its message about women?

It is completely different. nuns are a religious order, no ordinary catholic women wear the equivalent. This is every day wear for lots of women and of course it’s oppressive- no men are wearing it. Millions of women around the world are forced to wear it or die

@RumPidgeon JL has extremely strong diversity & inclusion aims as part of its brand.
Also what's wrong with a retailer extending its customer base?

I saw that and I was like “WTAF”!!! Such a good British brand - stooping to new lows in the process of increasing their customer base.

Sell clothing that promotes women shrinking into the shadows - reprehensible. Also: if anyone who buys this is actually looking for abayas I’m sure they’ll go to their trusted clothing shop of choice that is embedded in their community.

and what about Jewish women who are married?? they cover their hair or wear a wig?? surely no different

I know that we had another coworker who was male and did the same. I was giving an example of my female friend who I know and love.
I aren't completely ignorant to the ways of others and am sure I have room to learn a lot more. It's good to educate yourself on such things however, I don't blindly agree on every point either. Who are you to tell me what feminism is to be? My view points are my own and the point was, it isn't equal in the attitudes to dress in certain cultures. Feminism is about equality isn't it? Equality for all but women still feel the brunt of it these days.

This thread is specifically about this culture and religion. Otherwise I would mention others if it was in the post I responded to. I was sharing my view on the dress being of culture and not a specific you must do this and so forth. And the misogyny of men in faiths and just in general really.

All religion is pretty much built on misogynistic views. Hence why I am not religious.

I think you'll find that Muslim boys who choose to drink and eat bacon also often hide it from their more conservative parents. And it is often the ear-bashing they'd get from their mother they are the most afraid of.

All Abrahamic religions are deeply misogynistic but taking aim at one particular group of women because they dress differently to another (and not even that differently, stricter Christian and Jewish groups wear long, shapeless clothing and cover their hair) isn't "feminist".

I find this hard to believe tbh, unless their algorithm is truly bust.

No it's very different.

Nuns dress the way they do in order to show their love and respect for god. Habits are hardly worn these days, they are quite anachronistic. I spend a lot of time in Rome, my Jewish mother in law lives right by the Vatican, and you never see a single wimple.

The hijab and adjacent modesty clothing is worn by Muslim women so they are not sexualised by Muslim men. And they don't have a choice, for the most part.

Okay, I’m 100% sure definite.

I'm pretty sure that women choosing to wear the hijab (or similar) in the UK, are heavily expected to do so, by the men in their lives, be it their fathers or husbands

Oh you're pretty sure. That's definite then, brought to you by the Trust me bro school of thought.

I'm not sure how ranting on MN about an advert equates to Western women 'pushing back against tyranny'. You are achieving precisely nothing here.
The real push back against women's oppression comes from action. Working to support women survivors of DVAWG. Donating time and money to meaningful projects that increase education, improve health, provide employment opportunities and increase independence. Supporting women seeking asylum after fleeing tyranny.
The aim is not to swap male tyrants telling women to cover up for female tyrants telling them not to. You have no more right to insist on seeing a woman's arms legs and hair than a man has to tell her to cover them.
Because you have been socialised into the patriarchy, you are falling into the trap of believing the way to help women is to assert control over them in a different way, imposing new rules that you believe are better for them than the current ones. When the feminist aim should be that women are empowered to have free choice.
Given freedom, some women would not wear these clothes. Others would. It's the freedom of choice that matters, not the choice itself.

If I was living in Iran, I would also choose to wear a hijab. Because if I didn't, I would get thrown into prison. So, I would choose ....but that's not exactly a free choice, is it?

I'm pretty sure that women choosing to wear the hijab (or similar) in the UK, are heavily expected to do so, by the men in their lives, be it their fathers or husbands, and of course the wider community - again, not a free choice, not by a long country mile.

As John Heywood alluded in 1546 "There are none so blind as those who will not see."

I don't think it's islamophobic to realise this dress is actually cultural and not actually something that the religion dictates you do.

All that the book says is dress modestly. That in itself is an interpretation.

The reason women dress like this in these cultures from many centuries ago, is because of men and their roving eyes. If men could control themselves, women wouldn't have had to over the years, dress like this. It's all to protect from the male gaze which is the problem that I have with it. It is now sold as it's a choice thing and I am sure many believe it is. But if they didn't what would their families say about it?

I have no problems with the ladies wearing them and not saying they are coerced every time of course. But how it all started was because of men let's not pretend it didn't. You only have to look at men these days in all cultures and their attitude to what a woman is wearing and did she deserve it because of what she wore, it's sick and it's on the man not the woman.

Quite often in my city, I will see the man in western wear and the lady in full regalia. That in itself is incredibly sexist to me.

My friend is from a Muslim family. They are quite relaxed in a lot of ways, her mum is actually worse in her views, being from an African muslim country and her dad is a bit more relaxed having being born here. My friend has tattoos on her legs they have no idea as she isn't allowed to show her legs at home. They don't know she drinks, they don't know she actually doesn't believe in Islam at all. She has a white boyfriend and they know about him. She will moving in with him in the next year. She even eats bacon! It has been eye opening for me, her experiences.

She is like 30 and has to hide all this stuff and how she dresses when she isn't at home because of double standards for women.

I do agree if you want to wear regalia then do it if you want to. But it is not islamaphobic to understand the misogyny behind it.

But we ALL know that the hijab, and other garments of that ilk, were invented by MEN for women to wear. No woman who lives in the Middle East, where temperatures are searingly hot, would choose to wear a heavy BLACK garment, that covers her from head to toe, covering even the mouth and nose making it hard to breathe, and cope with the sun beating down on them, and being absorbed by the black cloth.

The MEN didn't even have the kindness to make the material white, to reflect the sun. No woman is choosing this, it was invented by men, and forced onto women. Any woman protesting otherwise has been indoctrinated and possibly brainwashed.

Look at photo's of women in Iran in the 1970's......not one of them wore a hijab. They wore clothes just like ours. Then, in 1983, thanks to Ayatollah Khomeini, it became legally mandatory for all women to wear the hijab, and any women refusing to do so could be fined or imprisoned. This is the oppression of women at it's worst. And as we all now know, that was just the beginning. Women now cannot be educated, or leave their homes without a chaperone. They aren't even allowed to sing in their own homes.

Women in the West should push back against such tyranny, not support it.

If I was living in Iran, I would also choose to wear a hijab. Because if I didn't, I would get thrown into prison. So, I would choose ....but that's not exactly a free choice, is it?

I'm pretty sure that women choosing to wear the hijab (or similar) in the UK, are heavily expected to do so, by the men in their lives, be it their fathers or husbands, and of course the wider community - again, not a free choice, not by a long country mile.

As John Heywood alluded in 1546 "There are none so blind as those who will not see."

What exactly is oppressive about this? It isn’t a niqab or burqa for starters, there’s also no sign the model was forced to wear it (I bet she was not!). You’re being Islamophobic.

First off, the UK is not a hot country.

Second, I've worn an abaya in Dubai and in Morocco and they are very cool and comfortable.

Third, this does not cover the mouth and nose.

Fourth, many Muslim women choose to wear hijab. You're not better than anyone trying to force hijab on women if you're trying to force them not to wear hijab. That's still misogyny.

Finally, many items of clothing were designed by men and many of the most famous designers are men. Unless you avoid anything made by or inspired by a male headed fashion house, I don't see your point.

But we ALL know that the hijab, and other garments of that ilk, were invented by MEN for women to wear. No woman who lives in the Middle East, where temperatures are searingly hot, would choose to wear a heavy BLACK garment, that covers her from head to toe, covering even the mouth and nose making it hard to breathe, and cope with the sun beating down on them, and being absorbed by the black cloth.

The MEN didn't even have the kindness to make the material white, to reflect the sun. No woman is choosing this, it was invented by men, and forced onto women. Any woman protesting otherwise has been indoctrinated and possibly brainwashed.

Look at photo's of women in Iran in the 1970's......not one of them wore a hijab. They wore clothes just like ours. Then, in 1983, thanks to Ayatollah Khomeini, it became legally mandatory for all women to wear the hijab, and any women refusing to do so could be fined or imprisoned. This is the oppression of women at it's worst. And as we all now know, that was just the beginning. Women now cannot be educated, or leave their homes without a chaperone. They aren't even allowed to sing in their own homes.

Women in the West should push back against such tyranny, not support it.

Completely agree @GimmieABreakOr3

This thread is thinly veiled racism.

Completely agree @GimmieABreakOr3

This thread is thinly veiled racism.