To not believe no dad is better

Ok, so let’s say your kids have an entirely absent father and they think it would be better to have him around, albeit he was unreliable and shit. How do they know that though, unless they’ve actually experienced both different scenarios?

Maybe because we've all seen countless women and children in our lives accept these men back only for them to sof off again because it's not actually about seeing the kids its about them controlling the situation and being able to click their fingers and swan back in when it suits them? And now we're seeing those children suffer the consequences and self esteem issues that came with that?

What do you mean by abusive though?
In my opinion I think a father who is (as you describe) inconsistent, unreliable, and rubbish is abusive and can do a lot of damage to a child without physically hurting them.
A child is much better off without a father who says he is going to visit but let's them down at the last minute or a father who plays with them one minute then sudden becomes impatient with them the next and shouts at them because they get bored and want to watch football on TV. A father who consistently shows the child they are not important or undermines a child's confidence and makes them think the have to earn their parents love is abusive and a child is going to be better without them in their lives.

That's really sad as you say they were emotionally abused from a young age so unsurprising that they're still holding on to the potential of a relationship with him, likely in a way they'll be able to fix it in a way they couldn't when they were children. I'm not sure them suffering the side effects of having an emotionally abusive parent is a good reason to agree with another child being affected in this way...

And that’s fine. You’re also entitled to your opinion. It doesn’t mean they’re wrong though.

The point is that children learn what a dad is from the man concerned. And they learn how relationships are from the relationships they see between the parents. Boys learn how men should behave to women, and girls learn what they should accept from men. So no, a crap dad is not better than no dad.

If you agree that feeling rejected & unwanted is harmful to children (and I do agree with that) can you not see that a man showing up every few months also makes you feel that way? Kids are not stupid, they see other people, they see other families, they know nobody is “working” every day for weeks and weeks on end all of the time.

Dad shows up for one good day, next day, week, month, child wants another day like that and… nothing. They feel rejected & unwanted anyway. A toxic cycle of getting their hopes up with one good day followed by weeks of disappointment.

Plus I teach my kids that when you love someone, when they matter, they make the effort. They show up. They prioritise you. That’s the outlook I want them going into adulthood and future relationships with so that they never accept the bare minimum from anyone. Not a chance I’d lie to my kids saying their dad is busy for months on end to protect his shitty behaviour, family and sharing DNA is not an excuse to be a shitty person.

How old are you kidding and what's their situation? You say their Dad is absent but do you mean they've never met him or he rarely sees him? If they genuinely think they would prefer to see this man irregularly rather than never, then they haven't made the logical conclusion that a man who wouldn't want to see them regularly isn't an asset. Unless you're going to drip feed that they're in their later teens , I'm not sure when we decided kids logically know what's best for themselves over their parent.

Obviously it depends how shit the dad is!

And there’s a sliding scale from the bottom end of “shit” into abusive.

There’s a line somewhere there (before you get out of the shit category and into abusive) where no dad at all becomes preferable.

And there’s the variable of how many other male relatives and family friends you have and how great they are!

People say these things to offer comfort, as in things are better as they are. Saying, yes you’re right isn’t going away change it, it might validate your feelings. Being honest is sometimes awkward for random people.!
Be honest with the children, acknowledging that dad is a selfish shit, he is immature but you cannot force him.
It is impossible to fill the void. You can only reassure them if you will always support them.

I actually agree with you op. My (now adult) children’s dad was emotionally abusive to them when they were young and we were divorcing. He’s still a shit parent (no interest) but I know if they were given the choice now whether to cut contact they would refuse.
They do have an amazing step dad but he isn’t their dad, he will always put his own children first.
My ex h does not deserve any relationship with my kids but that wouldn’t be what they wanted. They could have done that themselves.

Based on what logic though? You haven't said anything except you believe for some reason the kid will feel less abandoned by an inconsistent Dad despite people's lived experience that this messes children up a hell of a lot more than someone without a father around full stop. My dad died, it's been extremely hard but I understand and know why he's not in my life. Friends dads are alive and are shitty, unreliable and not there the way they should be and my friends seem much more effected by trying to process this into adulthood than I have wishing my dad were alive because still as adults they can't understand why their dad doesn't want to make the effort, because a part of their lives etc etc

Personally I think kids need stability, knowing who “their people” are. A man who shows up for a few hours every few months and doesn’t do anything at all inbetween isn’t a dad, and a child doesn’t need to sit wondering where that person is for weeks on end, wondering when they will show up again.

Ok, he’s just an arsehole

But surely that’s what they’re saying? That in their opinion (which they’re of course entitled to), an absent dad is the least worst of 2 really shit options?

About a year ago, Nephew was at our house for a family lunch. Came in to the lounge where the adults were sitting SUPER SUPER excited becuase he had managed to reach his dad on the phone (a rarity in his life) and his dad had said he'd take him away over the summer for a few days. He wanted his mum to speak to his dad, who was (apparently) still on the phone. SIL said she'd call him back later when she was home.

Neither SIL, nor nephew, heard from him again for almost 6 months. Was he punishing SIL for not taking the call? Was it all bullshit? Who knows. But I can assure you that DN doesn't take his father's unreliability with a pinch of salt. He gets super excited every single time, and super disappointed every single time.

Difficult to say because some crap dads ruin their children’s self esteem and confidence. In ways being notoriously unreliable is a form of abuse, whether it’s conscious or not. Your child expects you to show, you don’t again and again… Of course that’s going to impact them. Also having one who drifts in and plays Disney dad then drifts out again on a whim is obviously going to affect them negatively too.

That said, there’s a lot of evidence about the necessity of a strong father figure in boys lives particularly but it does not have to be the biological father or even a relative.

I think my xh did care enough in his own way, enough not to mess around with the children’s feelings when he was struggling with his own. I’m pretty sure his absence is partly because he trusted me to provide/ protect/ care/ nurture enough for 2 parents, partly for self protection as he realised he was right and partly because he realised any later attempt to come back into their lives would be for his own needs not theirs.

I'm thinking more about fathers who are unreliable, inconsistent, or just a bit rubbish.

Not sure can see how dmaanging it is to DC peers and neice and nephew -people who swan in and out and let them down.

It's not always easy to not say Dad are expected - partly as they are often ones making promisies with no consulation of mother - and partly as sitting around waiting tends to be a tell and some kids can't handle sudden changes so do need to be told.

I think the problem with dads not being around it they can get romanticised or mums get balmed for the lack of contact - but the slow drip of constant let down or periods when they do make an effort and periods they don't is slow erosion or trust and often relies on other parent to deal with and patch the damage caused be the behavior all of which is often acknowledged. Newphew school behavior issues do seem linked with his dad picking him back up and then dropping him - it's impacting his education.

"Being rejected or feeling unwanted can be incredibly painful and I think a lot of people are dismissive of how hurtful this can be."

Your right, it is incredibly painful. You seem to forget that yourself when you use it to advocate for unreliable fathers. Children with unreliable fathers deal with the feeling of rejection and feeling unwanted over and over again when their father lets them down repeatedly.