Are parents too involved in teenagers' A levels and independence compared to how they used to be?

I asked my next-door-neighbour if any of his preteens fancied earning some pocket money for feeding our cat when we went away. He said they were quite shy and unlikely to want to leave their bedrooms during the holidays. I wanted to say ‘my cat won’t start a conversation unless they do’.

Yes lower inequality and education is funded with some grants, though not enough to live on so students need to take out loans too (which need to be paid back no matter what income they earn, even if they earn nothing, starting a year or two after they stop taking the loan), some under 18s need to take out loans as they aren't eligible for grants but their parents might not afford to support them if they study elsewhere.

I went to school with a lad (really nice, extremely sheltered and looking back evidently had SEN). His mum ’helped’ him with everything. I remember saying to a friend how on earth was he managing at uni as the poor lad could barely write a sentence and it ended up his mum was doing his essays/coursework. He couldn’t find a job after graduating and went on to study to be a primary school teacher.

I wondered how on earth he was going to teach kids English/Maths as he would probably struggle with KS2 sats himself.

He last a couple of months being a primary school teacher, apparently the worst time of his life…

He now works in an office role in public service. When I heard I did wonder if his mum is still ‘helping’ him.

Yes, I notice it. The older I get and the younger people I meet, the more and more astonished and disconcerted I get over their mind boggling social awkwardness. One young lad in work literally stood still in silence when he finished a job, rather than ask anybody else if there was something else he could do or help with. Where is society going here?

But society has changed - deliveries instead of shopping for example. Child free weddings. Families criticised for shopping together.

Who goes to church? Libraries are shutting.

This is social change, it's the business model of our age.

I agree, but have you not read the numerous posts on here from posters who won't answer the phone, won't ring anyone or answer the door?

We are an increasingly disconnected society. Have you only just noticed? Did you not see this happening?

Who do you want a child to phone? I make mine phone the bookshop and for taxis, but they are both optional - both offer messaging.

Ordering in restaurants - many young-focused venues use QR codes.

Speaking to older adults - obviously family members but who do you mean? People are not out chatting on Coronation Street anymore. If I look out my front window right now - no one out there.

Public transport - working parents use cars. I don't myself but lots of people drive.

Oh, ffs. Listen to yourself. It's basic interactions that are incumbent on parents to, at least, partly instil in their children. What kind of awful, disconnected society are we going to end up with if these fundamental socialisations aren't learned?

speaking on the phone - widespread switch to messaging

You only have to read the numerous threads from adult mumsnetters who won't speak on the phone or answer the door. Modern technology is making people more isolated as they don't have to interact with other people on a personal level. It's quite depressing.

DD used to not want to talk to strangers on the phone, but when she got a job in a pharmacy she had to - all the time. Her self confidence has grown massively since then.

These are due to social changes not parenting

speaking on the phone - widespread switch to messaging
ordering in restaurants - business model changes
speaking to older adults - fragmented society
travelling on public transport - increased car usage generally

Do you live in a society with lower inequality than the UK?

Also is your post-school education fees state funded or student funded?

Are there grants?

This post resonated with me. I took my A levels in 1977. There was nothing like the pressure then as there is now to do well.

I put pressure on myself because I didn't want to fail, but as I wasn't going to university I wasn't under the kind of pressure that most 18 year olds are under now.

The government put the schools under pressure and schools/colleges put the students under pressure so it is understandable to see why there is more parental involvement.

That was my experience back in the late 90s. It had its pros and cons - sure, there was a lot of fun to be had with so little supervision and we were likely more independent in certain areas, but I've one sibling who ended up in serious legal trouble and on an ankle monitor for a year, crashing his future career prospects and another who had to be transferred to what we'd now call alternative provisions because of how much she was drinking and how that impacted her at school. How little our parents were involved definitely played a significant role in that. I certainly felt I had to be independent because no adult was going to give a fuck - I'd literally go missing for days and no one cared. These sort of not that uncommon situations often get ignored in these rose-tinted look backs. Lots of young people fell through the cracks, and still do.

Really, it depends on the child, their needs, and the courses they're on.

My third child currently at college throughout her GCSEs and now has always been the child who excels academically and socially with little input. I still check in with her, and I'm glad when she asks for support. She did need support in finding accessible work experience (where she's at requires 150 hours in the first year and she needs a placement that can fit with her disability), and I'm supporting her again in keeping an eye out for accessible work experience options for her second year.

My second child had very turbulent time at secondary and throughout her Level 3 apprenticeship regularly needed to decompress by talking to me so I absolutely knew what her day to day looked like. She became more capable over time as she worked out how to handle being an autistic adult, that took support.

My oldest child is the kind of person who is great at making things look like they're going really well when they're not. I'd do as others have said of checking in if everything was sorted, and he made it appear as if it was all on track. He hit a wall during his college years, was struggling, but covered it up because he thought others had it harder so shouldn't complain. Part of me regrets not being more involved, not knowing his day to day better, not having been able to see past his carefully constructed mask. I might have been able to help him before he hit rock bottom in a way that's taken years to rebuild from.

I think people say independence to mean capable, and for people like my son, like I was at that age, the myth of independence as a virtue causes more harm than good. Few are truly independent, we all rely on each other and evolved to do so. I think embracing being capable while also accepting interdependence, does a lot more for our wellbeing. I think it's importance for parents to model that.

I’d rather my kids got average grades and were also happy, well-rounded people that knew how to socialise well and make friends, were streetwise and had a bit of life experience, rather than being straight A students who were miserable with no friends and no social life. My kids’ happiness is the most important thing to me, not their academic achievement. I find it baffling when parents can live with their child being miserable so long as they get good grades

Those aren't often exclusive. It's an odd cultural idea common in many areas that people need to prioritise one side or the other, when they're interlinked. Plenty of young people get great grades, are happy, well-rounded, and have a great social life. Some need more support than others to do that. Being miserable and lonely can lead to struggling academically, spending two years to get weak grades can also make our kids miserable and isolating for others to avoid discussing the issue, even when they're quite able to take part in short-term happiness.

My Mum gave up her job while I was doing my A levels and i loved having her at home after years throughout school of coming home to an empty house. I think at that time she probably knew more about what was going on in my life than she ever had before and it was nice to feel like her priority for once. I wasn't very independent when I left for uni but i learnt and gained a lot while i was there. She has little interest in my life now, can go for weeks without speaking.

And what if you are not an educated intelligent person?

Smothering, 'Helicopter Parents' have done incalculable damage to children over the years. A lot of teenagers and twenty somethings are now so useless and gormless at everyday tasks like speaking on the phone, ordering in restaurants, speaking to older adults, or travelling on public transport that it's cringey and embarrassing to witness.

This is true enough - there are things that are now on the GCSE Biology syllabus that were cutting edge stuff when I was at University.
But you don't have to know factual information to be able to be helpful. If you are an educated and intelligent person yourself you can often work though school work alongside your child and help them come to the answers even if you don't know the subject yourself. Even in adulthood I occasionally asked my Dad about challenges I was facing at work. He wasn't a doctor, had never worked in the NHS even, but he was a great manager and he understood people and often had really useful insights.
Yes, it's probably easier if you do know the subject better - my DS would ask his Dad about maths rather than me as DH is an engineer - but you're not necessarily useless if you don't. I certainly didn't micromanage my DC but if they asked for help I was always happy to sit down with them and say "Ok, what's the problem and how are you going to tackle it logically?" Often they needed a sounding board and guidance with process rather than someone to tell them the answer.

Cost of living and existential angst are issues where I am, as well as the stress of trying to do well in school (perhaps even higher as you have to pass the year every year to progress so if you fail a subject you risk being kept behind, as is happening to an ex friend of DD's this year), though the share of young people going to uni isn't increasing I think. But young people here aren't going off struggling with independence, many will move away at 16 even to go to high school or vocational school somewhere else so the effect people are seeing isn't down to those factors, its down to differences in parenting and society.

When I went to university, though, there was no financial impact or expectation on the part of my parents. I received a grant and was financially independent. I think the fact that parents are now financially assessed and expected (whether they can actually afford it or not) to underwrite their children means they rightfully have a say. They want them to get good grades and go to the better unis/higher rated courses where there is more likelihood they will actually get employment afterwards

I left uni with a £500 overdraft that I’d cleared within a year of working - and jobs were available for grads - whereas these kids are making a commitment which will leave them tens of thousands of pounds in debt, mean they may be a financial burden parents during their time at uni and also afterwards when/if they cannot find a grad job and need to live at home. My parents were completely unimpacted by my going to university, so did not get a say in any aspect of it.

Good point. I remember my daughter asking me about cloning and dolly the sheep doing GCSE biology as id done A level.

However I did the A level in 89 and the cloned sheep didn't happen until 94 lok

You're making a classic error of assuming you are 'typical'.

There's a spectrum, you were parented in one way which has coloured your thinking.

If you want to be hands off with your kids, that's ok.

But other parents who had more supportive/involved parents themselves are likely to do it differently.

I sorted out my own college course, went to the interview etc before my mum knew.

Same with uni. Why did she need to be involved at all in me as an independent person?

I was brought up to be independent from an early age though.

Simplistic blaming of parents is a way of minimising the real pressures on young people.

Firstly, the group of kids going to uni is much bigger, so includes people who would not have opted to go previously - they would most likely have stayed nearer the family home.

Academic pressure is much higher - kids have it drummed into them that bad results will have big impacts.

Cost of living causes real issues - it's harder to be independent when ordinary jobs don't cover ordinary living costs. Students are working increasing hours.

Plus all the existential angst of climate change and war.

Unless your child is doing specifically the same A Levels as you did or ones relating very closely to a future career or education you've obtained, I think it's highly unlikely that parents can genuinely help at A Level. GCSE is much easier to support from a general knowledge base. And I would imagine the ones falling into that group that can genuinely help is a tiny minority of all parents.

I have a maths degree, PhD and have worked in a related field. I still struggled to help my child with his maths A Level as I'd forgotten a lot, there were things in his syllabus I'd never learned and I wasn't aware of the way he was being taught (and didn't want to confuse him by teaching in a different way). I had sufficient knowledge and understanding to be able to fill my own gaps using online materials, so that I could help him however.

When it came to History A Level, bearing in mind I gave up history at school at age 14, and, despite a general interest in some periods of history and skills and knowledge I've picked up through life, I have enough awareness to know that I'm not really the right person to help my child through the A Level. Finding practice exam questions online to save her a bit of time, yes. More detailed explanation of how to answer exam questions. Not a clue.