Political badges should be banned from NHS uniforms

Look I'm very very sorry, because it really sounds like you've been through a lot, and I'm heartbroken you feel like a guest here when that's not true.

We obviously aren’t ever going to agree here. I’m telling you that you’re hurting me

I take issue with this though. I'm not hurting you? I don't even have a Palestinian pin. While I understand you obviously feel very distressed I'm not hurting you and making you feel that way and members of the publicly feel this strongly about any number of things, provided the staff member is acting professionally, they're not hurting/harming you. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but you need to maybe use your words more clearly such as "this distressed me because X" rather than saying an individual is actively harming you without any actions or intent. It's causing a lot of confusion when you keep saying people will harm you and then saying people are misinterpreting this as you meaning they will harm you.

I have never refused to allow anyone to help me. I haven’t refused to allow my son to be taught by a Muslim teacher. I haven’t pulled my kids from classes where they discuss current events or boycotts or whoever’s marathon fundraiser for Palestine. I have always, always told my children that we are guests here and we need to stay quiet to stay safe. And I wouldn’t refuse to be treated by a flag waving whoever. But I wouldn’t want to be there, my kids would be scared / crying / hiding / whatever and I would do everything in my power to get out of there as quickly as possible. So my care would be compromised and it would be your fault.

We obviously aren’t ever going to agree here. I’m telling you that you’re hurting me and you’re telling me I shouldn’t be hurt or perhaps that I should somehow tell my children to stop being frightened of something that has been used to harass and intimidate them. I don’t know how to tell them not to be scared - they aren’t making it up, they have had multiple incidents of this flag being used to scare them. And the symbol might have originally meant something else and the bigots might have co-opted it and everything else people are saying is probably true - but it’s also true that many people use this situation to hurt Jewish people and for now, a place filled with Palestinian flags is not a place for me.

@BrownTroutBluesAgain did you have an answer for this?

@Anarchy99 @BrownTroutBluesAgain you'll also notice I use my words to express what I'm comfortable with. I haven't a really policed anarchy on what she's allowed to post...

Yeah but if you're an organisation who has supplied everyone with LGBT lanyards, has an LGBT staff network.and now you need to change the rules then ofc you're going to get pushback form LGBT staff that banning anything that is identifiable as being not conductive to work is implying being openly LGBT isn't conductive to their work.so I'm asking how you think that would be done that won't be open to staff feeling discriminated against? Especially when other symbols that aren't conducive to work are to still be allowed? If a legal judge had the same concern, I'm not pulling this from nowhere and I'm surprised you're so confident it can be done.

.’ It’s ironic that you take my opinion of a group of people personally, almost like when people wear badges supporting one side of a political argument make the other side uncomfortable.’

Exactly

Well in fairness you keep replying to me. I said I don't want to engage because I think once you already think anyone who thinks differently to you is a twat then you aren't really engaging in discussion or open to listening to people's views, if you are so keen to keep chatting to me personally I can't stop you.

I don't think the argument is against being openly LGBT, its about the symbol, which others have pointed out it not seen as welcoming to all parties (some don't like the version with trans included as they feel its linked to the erasure of sex-based rights, others find the previous version excludes trans people).

At no point have I called you anything. My comments were regarding groups of people. I don’t know you and have no reason to throw personal insults at you. I’m sure you are great at your job.

It’s ironic that you take my opinion of a group of people personally, almost like when people wear badges supporting one side of a political argument make the other side uncomfortable.

If you no longer wish me to engage then the easiest way is to stop replying to me.

That's not right though, HCPs aren't stripped of their beliefs hence they're allowed to refuse to do certain procedures.

Because its not about you and your personality when you are at work. You are there to do the job you are being paid for.

How is someone being openly LGBT not conductive to them doing their job though? Do you really not see how that could be a very dangerous stance for an organisation to take that currently embraces inclusion and diversity?

Based on the evidence from patients and other staff that it is not conducive to them performing their jobs, which is a well established legal reason.

There seem to be several streams of argument against banning them:

1. I want to wear them so I should be allowed (despite causing fear and harm to patients)
2. I don't agree it causes harm/fear (despite evidence from other posters and the report)
3. It would be practically difficult to do (legal precedent already in place to support)
4. It wouldn't be fair to only ban some symbols, everything personal should be banned (process for exceptions is established in law)
5. It infringes on my personal beliefs (no, you can believe what you want you just can't advertise it at work)

It what would be the justification for staff networks no longer being allowed to wear a symbol?

Surely they could just say all uniforms/NHS issued items must be a standard colour/style?

I'm really not aware of all the details but presume a lanyard is only one very small of their efforts to be inclusive and all they (legally) need to do is show is that they aren't discriminating by applying the same rules to everyone?

See I disagree with your analogy and am not going to get into it again how a white power badge isn't the same thing, it's a strawman. A more accurate example would be a doctor wearing a BAME pin and a white racist patient,.or maybe not racist but at least someone interpreting being pro one group as anti another. I see what you mean about waiting times which is why I think in practice you would hopefully judge by how someone is treating you not your assumption of them, if you're requiring accident or emergency care especially.

This is a classic example of whataboutery.
When someone raises concern about Palestinian civilians, the response is not to engage with that concern but to ask, “What about children in the UK?” or “What about Africa?” The implication is that unless someone campaigns equally and publicly for every injustice in the world, they are not entitled to speak about any particular one.
That’s an impossible standard and one we rarely apply elsewhere.
I care about children living in poverty, wherever they are. Wearing a Palestine badge simply reflects concern about a specific humanitarian crisis. It does not mean I don’t care about other issues.
Likewise, opposing the killing of Palestinian civilians does not mean supporting Hamas. I can oppose Hamas, oppose terrorism, and oppose the killing of innocent civilians at the same time.
Too often, discussions about Palestine follow a pattern of deny, deflect, or dehumanise. Rather than engaging with the suffering being highlighted, the conversation is redirected elsewhere or the humanity of those affected is diminished. Acknowledging the suffering of Palestinian civilians should not be controversial, and it certainly does not require me to prove that I care about every other injustice before I am allowed to speak about this one. I will continue to wear my Palestine pin and white poppy as is my right to.

I think legally it would be hard to word and enforce in a way that doesn't discriminate or stiffle staffs right to expression especially given these things are currently allowed as per organisations policies. I've said I don't think it's impossible but I don't know how it would be worded and neither did the judge who commented.

Suspect the poster was being sarcastic, pointing out that there are lots of things people don't wear badges, doesn't mean we all assume they support Hamas etc.

I'm not sure how legally the NHS could reverse it's stance on LGBT lanyards without it being discriminatory against LGBT staff, considering their values of inclusion and promoting LGBT networks and staff safety.

Surely who they care about is their own business and that should be left at home not worn on a badge at work that could intimidate others and is irrelevant to their role at work

So why not wear a badge that shows you care about children living in poverty in the UK, or Africa, or any other country? Why do you only care about the Children in Palestine?

Why not wear a badge that says you oppose Hamas?

Beliefs are not banned though. People can believe what they like.

I think you can make a fairly straightforward line between someone taking a normative action based on belief for themselves - like covering their hair.

And a political statement that is primarily meant to be for other people, like a badge.

Then it would be down to them to both argue that they would not be able to work without it and that the item itself was a core part of the belief.

Elements of this have been through courts before so the process is established and there is legal precedent the NHS could use but none that would support the wearing of a pin or lanyard, particularly a political one.

Maybe. I feel like the Jewish spokesperson on this thread but perhaps I missed another one.

There are many examples of people being treated differently based on race or gender or any number of other things. I don’t think it’s impossible someone would help me less as a Jewish woman if they were indeed a bigot. I don’t think all people wearing a Palestinian badge are bigots but some are, and until I know someone well I have no way to know which sort this specific person is. And there’s no way for me to know that when in a vulnerable position.

I am very, very sure that a person of colour finding a doctor in a white power badge leaning over them would find it hard to trust them. Or an immigrant waking up to someone festooned with English flags. Again - either of these doctors might be dedicated and fabulous doctors who will treat them well, but the initial signal isn’t going to encourage that belief.

I am also bewildered at the idea that I can just request someone else. It’s a 12 hour wait at our local hospital sometimes. I can’t actually imagine how long it would be if I demand another doctor based on absolutely nothing but overwhelming fear of what ‘could’ happen. What would that conversation even look like? I’d annoy myself with it, even more so the poor NHS receptionist having to listen to me.