Political badges should be banned from NHS uniforms

But in the NHS it is your job to 'support' someone 'whoever they are' in as much as you should do your job professionally irrespective.

Wearing pins or lanyards feeds into a narrative that those who do not wear them are unsupportive or 'unsafe' to use modern vernacular.

Why wear a rainbow lanyard and not a disability awareness one, coupled with a womens rights supporting one, plus an anti-racist, plus a support all religions, plus support atheism etc etc.

I find the logic quite strange that because some patients might feel distress over something which can't be predicted, a symbol knowingly causing issues shouldn't be banned. I've already said a consultation should happen because there will likely be lots of other issues that are less publically known about.

I've never said wreaths should be banned and bringing in Hannukah seems disengenious because we're talking about symbols, not being able to practice religion (its a nice thing but I don't particularly see it as essential for the NHS to do). Nor have I ever proposed banning staff networks.

Based on your responses, I can't tell if you want the freedom to wear whatever symbols you like and don't care about the impact on patients, so are just trying to deflect rather than just saying this, or you are genuinely unsure how it would work in practice.

I think it is a sincere comparison, it's either about patients feeling distress and upset or it isn't. What one patient could be viewing as a political symbol could literally just be a flag from someone's home country, and there are other characteristics people could interpret as being an open statement or their beliefs. If we're gonna ban every item that is political or social you're also gonna have a fight on your hands telling the BMA and other union members that they aren't allowed to wear a pin or lanyard or their union. You're gonna have massive push back from military family staff not being allowed to wear poppies. All the staff networks that currently have dedicated network days or memorials etc for staff members where they have lots of big symbols related to that group aren't going to want to have that banned. At my trust for example we have a huge minora displayed outside for Hanukkah and Jewish patients, staff and others gather to attend. So now that's allowed but not the annual remembrance memorial where people wear poppies and lay wreathes?

I think the rainbow badge is different as for me, it tells patients that I support them whoever they are. E.g. if I am meeting a gay teenager they may find it a source of comfort.

I was brought up Jewish and still have Jewish family and friends although I dont align with the religion now. I work as a doctor in a hospital and a lot of the staff wear Palestine flag badges and Free Palestine badges. I often feel uncomfortable when I see this. I can only imagine how they would react if I wore an Israeli flag. I wouldn't speak to these people about my background - i would hide it. I dont have a particularly pro Israel point of view but I find their badges hostile and slightly threatening. I try and just see it as a support of the Palestinian people so thats ok- but I agree shouldn't be allowed in health care as so politisized.

I have no issue with people being told no political badges at work. Any work. But I'm interested in where you would stop? Rainbow lanyards have been mentioned. Poppy badges, of any colour, for Remembrance (war is a very political issue).... Part of me thinks let people wear them but then I know I'd bristle at far right badges. So is it more about what we believe than the person wearing them??

I don't think its sincere to suggest that the distress caused by a political symbol is the same as a spider tattoo or blue hair. And we're not talking about banning one staff member from wearing one item in response to one complaint. We're talkimg about banning everyone that works for the NHS from wearing any symbol associated with a political or social movement which has been evidenced to cause distress. I doubt we'll come up with a comprehensive list on this thread but I don't agree that means the argument is invalid.

You don't have plenty of evidence that they have been able to do their job to a high standard while wearing these symbols, you have evidence that they have made patients uncomfortale enough that they've avoided treatment. The NHS should be investigating all reasons why someone would do that and seeking to address them. The behaviours of its own staff would be a good starting point.

Provide healthcare still within the remit of our personal boundaries and beliefs - We're still humans with rights. By your logic no doctors can conscientiously object to any procedures they're not comfortable performing?

I was respectful to individuals. I haven’t called you or any other posters names. You have been refusing to take on board anyone else’s view and that’s your prerogative. I don’t know whether it’s a refusal to understand or what. But that’s fine.

You call me disrespectful for quoting you when you have said you don’t want to engage. Yet you keep coming back at me. If I’m so offensive then feel free to ignore me - there are plenty of other posters with opposing views to you.

@PurpleThistle7 Would it help if I said it ‘hurts my feelings’

Yes that's much clearer.

This is a circular argument between abuse you keep refusing to acknowledge the multitude of things allowed that will also cause upset and offense in patients and how we are going to get into policing people's hair, tattoos etc . I'm not talking about the legal system as a whole, I know many private companies already have a very strict dress code. I'm talking about the NHS which already allows these things and trying to restrict it is a much trickier issue when employees have plenty of evidence of being able.to do their job to a high standard while wearing X for example. It's perfectly possible for a patient to be offended by something that wasn't intended to offend, you cannot therefore easily discipline the staff member for wearing something their policy allows just because a patient found it offensive when it's not obviously offensive to everyone. Someone with a phobia of spiders could find someone's spider tattoo offensive, doesn't mean you can discipline the staff member for intending to offend.

Would it help if I said it ‘hurts my feelings’? I have been super clear there’s no physical hurt on my part, only my daughter’s.

The hate marches and bullying and the physical attacks on her at school were all started with someone waving the Palestinian flag. And my children are being targeted only because we are Jewish. My children have never even been to Israel. So the ‘hurt’ is that many, many people around us at work and school and literally everywhere will prioritise their need to show whoever their solidarity over making any of us feel safe. And I’m very intensely aware that there are dozens of us and thousands of them so I don’t have any sort of say over any of it.

All I can do in this entire situation is remind people these protests and flags and pins and all of it isn’t innately or entirely good. It makes some people feel better or seen or part of something, but it makes a teeny tiny group of people feel lonely, exhausted and scared.

If it's not obvious enough, I don't think policing people is a good idea nor do I think making blanket assumptions about people is helpful 😉 I think using respectful actions and words matter most.

We have legally established items which are exempt. If you don't like this, then you need to challenge the law, not me, but in terms of the NHS taking action now, it can do so in line with the current legal precedent. You're right in that some beliefs (primarily religious) are given more weight than others in our legal system, in regards to what people wear.

I didn't say wearing the pin made them antisemitic, I explicitly said the opposite. However, the association of antisemitism with the symbol is still there. Yes, people are entitled to their beliefs, but their behaviour includes what they wear and wearing something you know will cause others distress is not a right.

Feel free to if it helps.

Because you keep saying items of personal belief have to be allowed without explaining how this isn't open to allowing items related to all beliefs which is exactly the legal issue that's already been proposed.

Please don't throw the fact that some Jews are Pro-Palestinian symbols in our faces when we are telling you that they cause harm to others. We aren't a homogenous group
I'm not throwing it your face by pointing out the exact point that Jewish people are a homogenous group and that there is a Jewish doctor arguing against the ban publicly. To say that a Jewish person wearing a pin makes them anti-Semitic isn't fair. It's a massively complex issue hence why I agree that staff and patients are entitled to their beliefs and the main thing is that behaviour is up to standard,.without reducing staffs rights.

I honestly don't understand what you mean when you say I haven't told you how exactly we're going to ban them all.

I've told you the current legal precedent, the logic behind current exemptions (religious etc.) and how new ones can be considered, explained that it wouldn't be discriminatory because its not targeting one group or making one group less equal, discussed existing NHS policy, proposed alternative ways of addressing health inequalities, and explained the justification behind the ban. I've agreed the logistics are complicated and suggested some steps to take. I'm not sure what else you would like me to say?

Please don't throw the fact that some Jews are Pro-Palestinian in our faces when we are telling you that they cause harm to others. We aren't a homogenous group and the Pro-Palestinian movement has been associated with a huge increase in antisemitism. Irrespective of whether an individual wearing a symbol is themselves antisemitic, the association is still there. I would not argue a Pro-Israel pin would be acceptable in a hospital because I recognise that it would make some people uncomfortable and possibly unwilling to seek help and that would be unfair on those patients.

You're still not explaining how an organisation that has embraced the LGBT lanyard as part of uniform for years is going to word removing it without seeming to be explicitly discriminating? Especially as that's an example of one that has improved health inequalities also.

That the evidence has come to light that the current policy risks creating health inequalities by hindering the access of some patients to the care they need. The NHS has a longstanding precedent of trying to address health inequalities, this is no different.

If the policy changed to ban you speaking about being LGBT or being LGBT, that would be discriminatory but there is no LGBT requirement to wear a lanyard, in the same way there is no requirement for someone straight to wear one.

But the point is they are not acting professionally by wearing a pin that causes fear in the patients and as a result hinders them from accessing the care they need.

Yet whenever I point out that many things may cause fear or discomfort in patients you won't tell me how exactly we're going to ban them all.

I'm not sure lumping the LGBT flag and Palestinian pins together has helped clarify the discussion,
I know it's easier if we exclude all other context and make it very black and white on one badge, but it doesn't work that way.

On the Palestinian badge though, I can't see any positive like this and there is a well evidenced negative impact on Jewish patients.
And some Jewish doctors who wear the pin feel differently.

It's complex!

But the point is they are not acting professionally by wearing a pin that causes fear in the patients and as a result hinders them from accessing the care they need.

I'm not sure lumping the LGBT flag and Palestinian pins together has helped clarify the discussion, because from what I've seen you're quite focused on defending the right to wear the LGBT lanyard, where @PurpleThistle7 has been specifically discussing the Palestinian flag.

You mentioned previously that lesbians may prefer to be treated by lesbians in some instances which I can understand but wearing a lanyard feels like a clumsy way to achieve this, while also risking making others uncomfortable.

On the Palestinian badge though, I can't see any positive like this and there is a well evidenced negative impact on Jewish patients.

Yeah but the guide currently allows you to express things, so I'm wondering what the wording would be to justify removing it. It's clearly not an easy thing and it's already been suggested legally it is going to have issues especially for protected characteristics such as sexuality.

I'm not saying that things like the network should be banned, nor am I saying it would be easily. Purely logistically, it would be difficult, but that doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do.

I presume there is a guide on what people can wear already (which probably covers religious dress) so that should be expanded and more awareness raised about the indirect harm people might be causing patients. At the same time, a process should be established (if not already) for staff to request exemptions.