Political badges should be banned from NHS uniforms

You interpret it as virtue signalling - fine. Can I ask what's so wrong about signalling support of inclusion or anti genocide though? I can't understand what the actual problem and I think virtue signalling is a bit of a buzzword like when mens right activists used to get in a tizzy over people being "social justice warriors" without explaining why social justice is somehow a bad thing..I'm also curious how they are unnecessary given many patients that they're aimed at have felt comfortable knowing they can choose a staff member with such a lanyard, so it's doing it's necessary job. You also clearly aren't very comfortable with people who support LGBT people or opposed genocide and I don't think you should have to be seen by anyone who you don't feel comfortable with, surely them wearing a badge helps you weed them out?

And for someone who is Jewish and is experiencing the current wave of severe anti Semitism? They aren’t the ones killing people. Yet some of the Pro Palestine supporters here are the ones killing people, destroying ambulances and subjecting school children to hate.

But that’s okay, right, because Israel is apparently bad and Palestine is apparently good

Wearing a badge doesn’t mean they genuinely support inclusion in any case. It only shows a desire to virtue signal.

Empowerment, empathy and inclusion should be adhered to in most things - but badges claiming to have empathy for a specific group are unnecessary and problematic

I don’t need to be Palestinian to oppose genocide any more than someone needs to be Jewish to oppose antisemitism. Human rights are universal.
You dismiss references to genocide as if they’re simply a debating point, yet the issue is the subject of ongoing international legal proceedings and findings by human rights experts. Opposing genocide and the suffering of civilians is not a fringe position—it’s a moral one.
You also invoke one person’s lived experience while disregarding the lived experiences of Palestinians and the many Jewish people who wear Palestine badges, attend solidarity marches, and speak out against the destruction in Gaza. Lived experience isn’t only valid when it supports your viewpoint.
A Palestine badge alongside a white poppy reflects opposition to war, violence, and the suffering of civilians. That’s entirely consistent with the values many healthcare professionals bring to their work.

Perhaps as a healthcare worker they feel incredibly saddened by the lack of respect of health workers lives in Palestine who have killed in droves? Or maybe they or their family is Palestinian, is that then okay to you?

A Jewish PP didn't explain how a badge like that detriments their experience and if they simply don't want to be treated by a HCP who feels the genocide in Gaza is wrong they can also ask to see someone else. Many other Jewish patients, including PPs may be wearing a free Palestine badge themselves.

Most trusts already ban them as part of their uniform policy.

That is illustrating my point perfectly. Are you Palestinian?

Theres always someone who pops up talking about genocide as a way to justify their view,

Is supporting Palestine relevant to treating patients? A Jewish PP has explained their lived experience

Why though given many hospital trusts have advertised principals and values which staff are expected to adhere to and many of the badges staff wear are aligned with these values such as empowerment, empathy, and inclusion etc. Unless you're going to pull a strawman like Peter and suggest this means someone could advertise their racism, you haven't yet explained how them displaying a sign that they support equality is wrong if it is keeping with the hospital trusts values?

What about poppies ?

No it's not though, it's a red herring and a straw man. There are people genuinely choosing to wear badges or lanyards that show support to political and social movements that exist and have goals of safety and equality that we know of. You're creating two groups that don't exist and don't currently have an advertised political agenda and also staying people will be mandated to wear them. You're also then refusing to engage and explain specifically who white pride or straight rights badges are advocating for and for what reason and what the social movement is. You're also then staying they'll be mandated. If you're gonna create a strawman, you need to actually explain it better and I'll happily say it I would be happy for someone to choose to wear one in the interest of self expression. Hard to tell when you won't confirm if this is a badge supporting white traveller women for example and for them to feel comfortable and engaged on a healthcare setting? Or is this an organisation of white supremacists? Or is white pride referring to all people with White as a surname? As it's literally a made up red herring, I don't know!

Being anti-genocide isn’t political because it isn’t about supporting a party, government, or ideology. It’s about recognising the value of human life and rejecting the deliberate destruction of entire communities. You can have different political views and still agree that genocide is wrong. Opposing mass atrocities is a matter of basic human decency, not political allegiance. I wear my Palestine badge alongside a white poppy and will not be taking either off.

Professionals shouldn’t be advertising their ‘principles’.

It was an example. You are clearly triggered by the trans thing. I was making the point that it is all badges that I think should be banned.

I will explain again…

I do not want to be treated by someone who advertises that they feel one way or the other about something. I just want to be treated by someone who can keep their personal views away from their professional life.

Same with solicitors, shop assistants, taxi drivers and any other person I deal with

What do you mean fantasy example? This is serious business. Do you not agree it's important to make groups with poor health outcomes feel welcome and included through wearing of badges? You did a moment ago.

It's not a red herring. It's a direct application of the principles you have expressed.

Badges may or should be worn to help make groups feel welcome.

Doesn't matter if it makes others unwelcome, provided there are other providers with no badges who they can go to.

Not all badges are justified. One justification you endorse though is where a group faces worse health outcomes.

These are your own principles.

Are you saying. Staff are being mandated to wear rainbow or Palestinian badges? 😂 Why can't you actually engage in the reality rather than appealing to these fantasy examples of yours?

@GeneralPeter also, wear have I said I have an issue with any badge? I know you want to create a red herring by making up organisations that don't exist in order to go "see!! You want to ban badges too!" but it's not based in reality. Is there a reason you're not comfortable engaging in discussion without red herrings? I'm actually not bothered if someone wore a straights right badge, although they'd look as silly as someone wearing a mens right badge, if I didn't like it feels comfortable with them for any reason I'd use my words to see someone else which I've done many times, with it having nothing to do with lanyard or badges. Although I'm guessing expecting us to all be adults means you'll have to reach further and pretend there are NHS employees wearing KKK badges, just to create another fictional extreme instead of engaging with the topic of the thread.

That's right. Not just traveller badges though. We're going to take a broad measure of health outcomes (like all-cause mortality), and draw a dotted line half-way down the chart to show the average.

Those groups with worse health outcomes get to have staff wearing badges representing them, those with better ones don't.

It will change from time to time. For example during Covid the stats moved a lot, then moved back again.

We'll keep reviewing it every, what, twelve months? To make sure that the right groups are made to feel welcome and included.

Some staff will be designated not to wear any badges, so that any patients who feel uncomfortable are still properly served.

I think we're getting somewhere. Thanks for all your helpful suggestions.

Ohhhh is your white pride badge for travellers? I'm still waiting for you to explain what these made up political groups are for.

That sounds very complicated.

You're making an assumption that they think that though, the badge isn't saying that at all. And I'm not jumping on you for anything I'm simply asking you to expand on the point you started about the trans badge. How do you know for a fact the wearer believes someone can change sex rather than showing they're comfortable to see patients of any presentation and signalling to them that they are comfortable to address them however they would be comfortable?

i don’t want to be treated by anyone who isn’t professional enough to do their job without wearing a badge to show what a good person they apparently are,

By the sounds of it you just don't want to be treated given you haven't answered to say every member of your local and otherwise cervical screening clinics wears a trans badge? Which I very much doubt. I think you were making a hyperbolic point that someone trans badges are so prevalent that you simply can't get treatment you need. If you were against all badges you wouldn't have stated this was solely because of trans badges or be assuming that somehow wearing one means the wearer has less biology knowledge than you who doesn't understand how to use her words and ask to see another clinician.

Your new proposed rule is what: flags are allowed if the population they seek to represent faces worse healthcare outcomes than the population average?

I like your approach and appreciate that you want to ground it in real-world evidence.

"by 2022 overall mortality rates returned to pre-pandemic patterns, with the white and Mixed groups again having the highest mortality."

This report doesn't split out by sexuality, so I'm happy to drop the proposal for straight rights badges. We'll just have the white rights badges, as indicated by your rule.

Or are the goalposts going to move again?

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/long-reads/health-people-ethnic-minority-groups-england

Or don’t wear badges in the first place - solved

You are jumping on me because of the trans thing.

I am not saying they know less than me. I am saying that if you are proud to advertise that in your opinion someone can change sex or can become a woman by feeling like one, it raises a question over their biological knowledge.

But I have explained that it isn’t a trans issue only.

i don’t want to be treated by anyone who isn’t professional enough to do their job without wearing a badge to show what a good person they apparently are,

Peter, if you want people to engage in your made up red herring you're going to have to explain what it is. You made up these white pride and straight rights organisations to make your point, you're going to have to explain what they are for me to follow you and say whether I think your point is valid or not. What are they please?