Political badges should be banned from NHS uniforms

@Fancythatfancyhat a pro Palestine badge can imply criticism of Israel and by extension Jewish people.

Jewish people living in the UK obviously shouldn’t be blamed for what is happening in Gaza but life isn’t always that straightforward. As we see from the rise in antisemitic attacks since 7/10/23.

Can you explain how an explicitly anti gay pin is equivalent to an LGBT one? I wasn't under the impression an LGBT symbol is anti straight? Likewise, white power is a white supremacist phrase, do you genuinely believe that a BAME or BLM pin is being anti white in the same way white supremacists are racist? It seems like your bringing UK a strawman to insinuate a Pro Palestine badge is an something badge rather than being exactly what people stare it is- a show of solidarity for people in Palestine. If I wear a star of David am I being inherently anti Muslim? I would think that's just as absurd and offensive assumption.

More importantly badges that are pro LGBT or support BAME causes are in keeping with the values of the NHS of inclusion. How is an I hate redheads badge on keeping with those values? Or a pro racism badge? Surely you do actually understand how they're not the same.

I do sympathise with you, if anything I think the badges surely help you in identifying people you don't personally feel safe with.

Actually I think wearing a badge doesn’t make someone less able to do their job. But it also doesn’t make them more able. It won’t change their abilities at all. But it will hurt me - or many other people depending on the badge. So if anyone would be frightened or triggered by a white power badge or an English flag or an anti gay pin or whatever really, that must be more important than a fashion choice by a healthcare professional.

If you allow ‘some’ badges where does it stop? Can I wear a badge saying ‘I hate redheads’? Is that okay? (It’s a lie, I think red hair is gorgeous).

You don’t have to empathise with how frightened I am just now but you could try to sympathise. I promise I don’t run around my workplace or city ripping flags off of doors and buildings and people but I think it’s really different when it’s someone in a position of trust.

It hasn't really been properly explained why it's intimidating except for people assigning nefarious intentions to the wearer rather than the well known stated reasons people wear them which is to do the opposite of intimidating people. A lot of opposition to them reads as people finding a signal of support for a group inherently intimidating to them as someone who isn't a member of that group. There's also a bunch of religious or cultural items that people claim to find intimidating, such as headscarves. So just because someone can find a headscarf intimidating it should be restricted? The article even emphasises the most sensible solution is a reasonable behavioural standard, which makes sense. Someone wearing a pin isn't them "acting" intimidating, provided their actions of treating someone are professional and kind.

ETA, you're also ignoring the many people who find the badge supportive and makes them seeking healthcare less intimidating. Why could it not be that someone is continuing to wear a pin that they know has made members of their community they care for feel safer and welcome rather than saying they're just choosing to ignore those who have an issue with it as though there's no other benefit?

Trade unions are absolutely political, particularly in the NHS, no? There are many patients who don't support doctors strikes for example, wearing a trade union badge is a statement. Likewise, religious symbols are considered political choices by some, which is why I think a lot of things could get caught up in the definition if we're going by the intent assumed by someone else rather than the intent of a worker. If someone can wear a religious symbol what difference does it make by not being on a lanyard?

For those who work in healthcare and want to wear a badge (of any kind) do the comments from people saying your actions are intimidating, make you question your decision?

I.e. was it a choice made without realising the impact on others or would you continue irrespective of the impact on your patients?

I realise ! Forgot he had resigned….

Well, they didn’t years ago.
And there is no need for them. So shouldn’t.
Doing something doesn’t make it right.

We included trade union badges/lanyards in with professional organisation badges as being a member of a trade union says nothing about one's political leanings. Similarly religious symbols are protected although they must be worn in a way which complies with infection control and general health and safety.
Times do change though. I don't think it should be a problem for people of goodwill of any race, colour or creed, to remove problematic badges. I am not aware of any religion that requires the wearing of a symbol on a badge or lanyard.

Fairly confident people have been wearing trade union lanyards or pins for many years in the NHS. Likewise poppies and religious symbols all of which can be political. I haven't seen anyone day they'd be unable to work without their badge, the argument seems to be that those who oppose a pin feel it makes staff unable to do their jobs without explaining why.

except its not Wes Streeting any more!

I would very much struggle to get my children to see a healthcare professional wearing a Palestinian badge. I would try to ignore it because I’m an adult, but I could have a panic attack. I have plenty of those nowadays so who knows really.

I think kippot and Muslim women covering their hair is very different. Those are religious requirements and not for me to judge. There is no religious requirement for someone to wear a flag or a necklace so no issue banning those (for me). My son’s teacher is Muslim and covers her hair and he isn’t scared of her. He’s very scared of the children who draw Palestinian flags to leave on his desk though.

You are very much misunderstanding if you think I said I actually think a doctor or nurse would hurt me for being Jewish at a hospital.

I'm sorry if I've misunderstood that from your claim you wouldn't be able to see a GP if they were wearing a Palestinian flag and that if you awoke yo a HCP wearing one caring for you that you wouldn't feel safe with them. This very much sounds like you're saying they would hurt you. I'm curious as I asked PP where you draw the line at a ban though? You say Jewish stars, what about a Kippah? Do you really think Jewish doctors who wear them should not be allowed?

This is a lot of emotional energy when frankly there should not even be a discussion.
NHS people years ago never wore any badges about anything. That is how it should be. When it became a thing I do not know and don’t care.
If I was Wes Streeting I would make it so they take any badges off.

If you find you are unable to work as a medical person in the NHS without wearing a badge then leave your job.

I don’t actually think they do mean me harm. I think in this time of very heightened emotions, do no harm should include a consideration of mental health. So English flags, Jewish stars, whatever… they just aren’t appropriate for NHS staff. There’s no reason for a health care professional to be a political activist at work. In my particular situation, I am very aware of one specific issue but I’m sure plenty of other people have other experiences and triggers so I would say people in a position of trust have a responsibility to be as neutral as possible.

You are very much misunderstanding if you think I said I actually think a doctor or nurse would hurt me for being Jewish at a hospital. My daughter was indeed hurt at school but that was by teenagers, the teachers wearing flags of support for those violent thugs just make her not want to go ask them for help, they haven’t actually hurt her physically.

I do not think pro-Palestinian = anti-Jewish. I am saying that for me and my family, the fear we experience is intrinsically linked to this flag right now

These completely contradict eachother.

They can be the sort of person who fights for good and donates their time and money to food banks and lives a great life... but they can also be people who want to destroy Israel, kill Jews and traumatise my children at school. And at first glance I have no way to distinguish between them

The same could be said of any group though. Surely the fact that you can't tell these people apart is a sign that being overly discriminatory over a symbol rather than someone's individual behaviour is wrong? Otherwise the same logic and discrimination can be applied to people wearing something that shows support for Israel. Likewise there can be many anti-Semitic people who don't wear a Palestinian flag,.so why not judge by whether they're treating you unfairly or unsafely? With the example of your daughter,.that's a different situation as you're saying for her the flag is a literal trigger of a traumatic memory of an assault, that can apply to all.sorts of things and we can't police people not to wear anything because it might be a random trigger for someone. I still don't truly believe it your daughter was in an emergency situation that you would deny her being cared for by the consultant in charge of they happened to be wearing a Palestinian pin and if you would I'd be very confused how you're twisting that person trying to save your daughter's life with her actively trying to harm her purely because of the behaviour of some people. Just as I don't think a Palestinian or other Arab patient should justifiably feel a Jewish consultant means them harm. Fine if you would rather see one over the other, it's your choice as a patients but to suggest as HCPs they're unsafe or mean harm is quite insulting..

I do not think pro-Palestinian = anti-Jewish. I am saying that for me and my family, the fear we experience is intrinsically linked to this flag right now. People waving it around can be lovely people, but they can also be terrifying. They can be the sort of person who fights for good and donates their time and money to food banks and lives a great life... but they can also be people who want to destroy Israel, kill Jews and traumatise my children at school. And at first glance I have no way to distinguish between them. My kids have been frightened multiple times by flag wavers and they get really, really scared when they see one now.

My daughter had to be escorted to school for weeks after the police were involved in her assault in the school hallways by a group of teenage boys. So now when she sees a Palestinian flag, she gets scared. If she's in a car accident, terrified and in pain and opens her eyes to see a Palestinian flag she will absolutely panic. My son would run. So given that it 'would' create harm and wouldn't specifically create any good I can't quite see the point of it. Just because we are the minority doesn't mean we shouldn't count for anything.

So to clarify what exactly is the HCP who is attending to you in this emergency where you wake up going to do that will be so harmful sorry? I'm very confused. And it's only the badge with a Palestine flag that means they hold those views does it? You wouldn't assume a Palestinian doctor who didn't wear a badge is somehow going to harm you...? It sounds like you're projecting a lot of bad intentions onto a nationality and I'm not sure why. By this logic, is it okay for a Palestinian patient to assume someone wearing a Kippur to signal they're Jewish is someone guaranteed to harm them or would you think they're being discriminatory there?

ETA, especially given this is healthcare and the example you used is someone helping you in a first aid situation where's the leap to assuming they mean you harm? Surely the easiest way to harm you would be by not assisting you ..

To me, the message of the red poppy isn’t simply remembrance—it’s also remembering why remembrance matters. We honour those who suffered and died in war so that such horrors are not repeated.
That’s why I see opposing genocide, ethnic cleansing, and the mass killing of civilians as entirely consistent with the values the poppy represents. Remembering past atrocities while remaining silent about present ones would miss the point of remembrance altogether. But that’s just the view of lil ol’ me.

By what logic though? If we have an LGBT company network what's the logic of banning LGBT lanyards exactly? "Perceived conflict" is what exactly? It strikes me as a bit ironic that people offended by pins have to "perceived conflict" that isn't actually there in the interaction while at the same time saying a pin is "virtue signalling" as in the person doesn't even really believe in the cause they're wearing a pin for - so is there conflict or not? 😂 And what exactly is virtue signalling? If I'm one of only a few in a team that doesn't wear any badges am I virtue signalling signalling to you a message about why I'm not wearing them?

It really sounds like a lot of opposition to pins and badges in overthinking and creating a situation our of assumptions in your head, and if it's so irrelevant to you I wonder why it's front and centre of your mind instead of the health issue you need attending to, apparently so much so you can't even make a request for you who would rather see.

No of course not. Well I have no idea really. But it's almost impossible to get an appointment, weeks to wait and a lot of arguing to see anyone so I couldn't just 'request' another person. I'd just have to call back the next day and try again and hope someone else is working. If I'm in an accident and wake up to find someone standing there, I can't just tell them to go away. It's just an odd thing to suggest, like I have any choice in the people who look after me in an emergency so it's my fault if I don't feel safe with them.

@Fancythatfancyhat I think they should be against the uniform policy!

It doesn't really matter what the subjective view of the wearer is if there is a risk of confusion or perceived conflict being caused to the person being dealt with. It's just so unnecessary and virtue signalling.

I'd make an exception about red poppies in November (although recognising they too bring issues especially in NI) although I can see that might be inconsistent although I'd think it a shame if we can't pay tribute to those who fought and died for the life we have now

They are paid by the public purse. They should do their work without showing any political affiliations.
This should not even be a conversation.
Medical staff years ago did not waft about wearing political badges. Thank goodness. They can take them off.

But they surely could have had media attention for the case that didn't include identifying them personally as HCPs in their uniform, so now all patients who see them will know their views. By your logic, what if some patients feel this makes them uncomfortable?
Many HCPs could argue that their pins are relevant to the community they serve so that's okay by your logic then? I.e..wearing a BAME pin as a maternity worker in an area with a large BAME community, or in a clinic that may have many LGBT patients, is that ok?

I haven't suggested banning any pins, I actually asked you wearing the line is on banning things and yet somehow you're flipping the question to where's my line on what's not allowed when I haven't suggested that. Please don't go down Peters route creating strawman examples.

As for patients reactions I already said patients.dont need to "react" to the pin any more than they should react to someone's race, sex etc. while you can request care from anyone, you shouldn't be rude in reacting to the person you'd rather not see just ask to see someone else.