Political badges should be banned from NHS uniforms

Posted without seeing your post but yes - I’m on the verge of it. If it costs my health then so be it. As long as everyone can fly their favourite flag eh!

And in case you don’t think it matters, I’m on the verge of disconnecting from my GP practice at the moment despite having several health conditions because it’s all bullshit.

Can you evidence that the wearing of badges has improved outcomes for those historically have received lower standards of care? And even if that is true, surely we should be seeking other ways to make everyone feel like they can be treated fairly.

Part of the evidence to support the ban came from patients saying they had delayed seeking care based on badges worn by healthcare workers so allowing the badges is just introducing more unequal outcomes.

Nope because you're ignoring their benefit again and the fa t that those who don't want to see one can request care from others. Likewise many other symbols will be concerning to some, so what do we ban? Is a Muslim Palestinian patient allowed to assume a doctor in a Kippah is pro settler and islamophobic?

You aren’t taking anything on board from anyone else so I’m not sure why you claim to seek clarification . You are misinterpreting people’s comments.

We get it, you think it’s fine that people won’t leave their political leanings at the door when they go to work, you are clearly fine with symbols making people feel uncomfortable as long as they make some people feel okay,

I don’t think anyone is saying that staff are wearing a badge specifically to make others uncomfortable.

I don’t deal with the public any more but I still wouldn’t bring my beliefs to work in such an obvious way.

I think this is another unfair reading of a pro BAME or Pro LGBT pin though. Would the people who believe white people are being discriminated against wearing an antiracism badge or a badge that says white pride, and can you really not understand the real world difference between white pride and BAME groups? Do you think mens rights activists are equivalent to women's rights advocates genuinely?

If I am wearing a Palestine pin and my white poppy and someone wants to wear an Israeli pin I have no issue with this. Just like I have no issue with marches supporting Israel. I am fine with them wearing it.

@Fancythatfancyhat

"I understand some people may feel differently and those people are entitled to not be treated by someone wearing such a badge".

Great - you understand then that it's better that HCPs don't wear badges at all since there is no way of knowing who may find them concerning and who may find them comforting.

I didn't say I should get to at all!! No one should be acting or behaving in a way that will upset people. I'm just saying wearing a pin isn't consciously doing that anymore than many other ways I could present myself would upset people. If I had blue hair without my rainbow lanyard I still think some would assume an affiliation I have and may be upset by that, that's not me upsetting them though?

If you've read my post, I have already explained many times I understand some people may feel differently and those people are entitled to not be treated by someone wearing such a badge. I just don't think they can argue that someone is wearing that badge specifically to make them feel unempathised with and I'd also question which badges carry that message, do people really think someone wearing an LGBT pin wouldn't empathise with them as a straight person? I'm still gonna need that explained to me like I'm an idiot apparently and not with examples of someone wearing a pin that's explicitly anti a group such as "I hate redheads" or a made up badge supporting white pride or whatever.

In the NHS we don’t want only some people to feel like their healthcare provider is on their side. We want everyone to feel valued equally.

Of course but historically this hasn't played out has it? Which is why some groups face worse health outcomes and it's actually improved that for them to be able to visually see which HCPs they would feel comfortable being open with.

Agreed, the view very much seems to be some badges should be accepted as long as they align with certain viewpoints but as clearly shown in the last few weeks online and on the streets, there are large numbers of people who do think white people are being discriminated against.

We need less tribalism, from all sides, and that means not using your job and uniform as a platform for your chosen tribe(s).

Can Muslim or Arab patients worry the or is it all just divisive assumptions not based in people's actual behaviour? Do you really fear all doctors (doctors!!) would deliberately give subpar and compromising treatment to Jewish patients or are you assuming this of a certain type? Would a pin of solidarity not ease your fear? I understand anti-Semitism is an issue, just like racism or islamaphobia but I don't understand the leap to thinking a majority of HCPs are consciously going to give you compromised care, the data doesn't even show this for groups that face worse health outcomes historically. Issues like implicit bias and erroneous assumptions about people's race being detrimental is an evidence issue but I would also think a black patient was being hyperbolic to assume a majority of doctors would intentionally single them out for substandard care.....

I say this following examples given from certain doctors themselves who have publicly stated they would refuse to treat a Jewish person. Those are the few who have come out and stated it, not the ones who don’t wish to jeopardise their positions.

Strange you accept that a badge can make some NHS users feel like the HCP knows where they are coming from but don’t accept that it can make others feel like the HCP wouldn’t empathise with them.

In the NHS we don’t want only some people to feel like their healthcare provider is on their side. We want everyone to feel valued equally.

But why do you think you should get to upset some patients? You're not there to upset them, you are there to treat them.

The fact that they’ve got away with it till now is indicative of where the country is at the moment. But if I were an identifiable Jewish person, I can tell you that even if the badges disappear, the fear would still remain regardless, as to whether I was being singled out for sub standard or even compromising treatment.

You're also another poster completely ignoring the reason people have states FOR wearing them which is there are many patients it does the opposite of upset. For many it makes them feel safe and like their HCP understands where they're coming from. Theres also thousands of HCPs wearing nothing for anyone upset by a pin. Why do the only people who matter are those who don't want to see a lib and have plenty of other people to see? Why does the mum who thinks a BAME badge is virtue signalling trump the black pregnant mother who may feel safer with a midwife with that badge?

I'm saying by that logic not just badges upset people. Religious symbols upset people, support of unions and strikes upset people, hair colour can be seen by some as a political affiliation and upset people so where do you draw the line- just badges? Can I wear a hijab with Palestinian colours? What about a tattoo of a peace symbol?

Strawman though...unless brunettes are actually systemically disadvantaged in some way? Likewise, when when was society not allowing people to be heterosexual? I must have missed the recent fight for straight marriage in the last few decades for example. Can you tell me whether "pro whiteness" is universally recognised as associated with white supremacists or has there been some systemic racism against white people we all missed? And where are these in keeping with the NHS values as an organisation? Do you know of any white pride staff networks? You're just repeating Peters logical fallacies here rather than engaging in any of the questions I've asked about your viewpoint.

Whether someone is worn for solidarity or not it could still possibly frighten or other people, I don't think that means we should police what people wear provided they are in keeping with the organisations values and are treating people with respect. You said you believe a Palestinian flag pin wearer may harm you, what about another patient who assumes that just from someone wearing a hijab - can we justify banning hijab? What if as a Palestinian patient a doctor in a Kippah scares me ? Do you think it's more reasonable to support patient choice to be seen by a HCP they feel comfortable with while also allowing people to wear items some take issue with as long as they're behaving professionally?

@Fancythatfancyhat you are arguing with lots of people on this thread that pins/badges don’t matter to you when they are trying to tell you they matter to some people.

Even if they don’t matter to you, knowing that some people get upset by them, why would NHS workers wear them? It’s a lack of empathy about patients who may have sensitivities. It’s not that hard not to wear a political badge to work surely.

Do you think the people who only join for the discounts are wearing the pins and lanyards then? I don't think they but in which case, maybe you don't need to worry about anything being a political expression. Maybe the pins people are assuming mean the HCP is going to harm a subset of patients are just random pubs they got for free?

Fine. Change my pin to ‘pro brunette’ then. Or ‘pro white’. Maybe a pin that says ‘happily heterosexual’. It doesn’t have to be ‘anti’ anything to be aggressive and problematic.

I don’t care what a doctor thinks about Ukrainian politics so would say you can keep that to after work. I don’t see what positive impact it could possibly have to remind everyone you feel whatever way about an unrelated topic.

I am however 100% sure that the small possibility of frightening or othering a person here in the UK is much more important than sending ‘solidarity’ to strangers who will never see this pin anyway.

It doesn't imply that at all, you wanna read it as that sure but it sounds like by that logic you conflate all solidarity with palestinians, especially the swathes of Palestinian healthcare doctors who have died, as critique of Israel meaning no one can support the Palestinian people in any way? To then conflate critique of Israel with Jewish people "by extension" is a conscious and illogical choice. How are Jewish pro Palestinian criticising Jewish people? The conflation of Jewish people and the Jewish religion with the actions of a state/army is antisemitic so I'm not sure why you're doing that. I'm also not sure where I said or anyone's pin said that a Palestinian flag meant that Jewish people are to blame for what's happening in Gaza - could you quote where you saw that?

no. Anybody of any political leaning can and does join a trade union and for many different reasons including some excellent discounts. The discussion on this thread is about badges and lanyards.

Some do wear them and what's wrong with that? I don't see an Israeli flag to mean anti Palestine anymore than the reverse. I also don't believe pins or badges "make" people feel uncomfortable, if you feel uncomfortable because you assume a show of solidarity for one group means the person will actively discriminate against another group then I think those people would still assume that about other characteristics of the wearer.