Political badges should be banned from NHS uniforms

I work for the NHS and have never seen a colleague wearing a political badge or lanyard.

Just to be clear though OP, thinking Netanyahu and the Israeli government are a bunch of war mongering shits doesn't make a person anti Semitic. It is based on the actions of Netanyahu and his cronies. I have zero problem with Jewish people. Michael Rose and other prominent Jews have also spoken against the Israeli government. I also think Trump is an absolute cunt if that helps.

The law as it stands is that religious dress cannot be banned unless it is can be demonstrated to be incompatible with the role. Other than that companies are free to impose dress restrictions as they like.

What I think you are asking is you can't ban religious items, even though some people object to them, how can you argue other items should be banned just because people object to them too? I have answered this numerous times. If that's not what you're asking, please rephrase.

I'm extrapolating from a comprehensive report and years of news reports covering this. You cannot pretend that all health care workers are virtuous purely because of the job they have chosen to do. There have been instances of racists, terror supporters, abusers, and murderers, all working for the NHS. Therefore, its perfectly reasonable to assume not everyone in the NHS has completely pure intentions, they're all human after all, and when someone says they're going to ignore patients who are telling them they feel too unsafe to access care because they don't want to change their behaviour, I question this too.

My view is the NHS needs to follow the law.

The law as it stands is they are allowed to wear these ?

Evidence has been found that these items are having a negative impact users, particularly one minority. Continuing to wear them when this has been identified is a choice to place your desire to wear a pin (however admirable the intent behind it is) over others health needs and I do question where this is the action of someone that doesn't wish to cause harm.

I don't understand why you can't answer a simple question. There are other items we cannot ban that have the same negative impact on users - how do we resolve it in view of the fact we can't ban the items? And how is this solution completely incompatible with the negative impact caused by flags or LGBT lanyards?

Continuing to wear them when this has been identified is a choice to place your desire to wear a pin (however admirable the intent behind it is) over others health needs and I do question where this is the action of someone that doesn't wish to cause harm.

I think you're massively extrapolating from a news article and a couple of posts on Mumsnet to actual patient feedback or trust complaints. I agree if a patient has actually particularly complained about a doctor and the impact it had on them, they need to reflect and adjust accordingly but I don't think HCPs who receive excellent patient feedback from all their diverse patients is "someone that wishes to cause harm" because they won't act on the opinion of anonymous forum. I also think given the unprecedented killings of healthcare workers suggesting those who mourn and stand in solidarity with them and work in a profession that really has no other benefits except helping people (working conditions, money etc is awful) is in pretty bad taste. People can hold nuanced different opinions, it doesn't mean you have to accuse them of "wishing to cause harm" which is quite a low blow and unevidenced.

I've never proposed banning religious items and have responded several times on this already. My view is the NHS needs to follow the law. At present religions have specific protections that other beliefs do not (because those beliefs don't require you to wear something). If you would like to challenge the legal principle and think you can demonstrate wearing a pin is fundamental to your beliefs, please go ahead, but I don't think it has been demonstrated on this thread for any symbol.

I keep bringing up the wants because it is a critical point. I don't think someone who chooses to wear a pin or flag is a bad person. Nor do I think it makes you a good person. Each symbol is worn for a myriad of reasons, personal to the wearer. Some good, some bad.

Evidence has been found that these items are having a negative impact users, particularly one minority. Continuing to wear them when this has been identified is a choice to place your desire to wear a pin (however admirable the intent behind it is) over others health needs and I do question where this is the action of someone that doesn't wish to cause harm.

You're not saying that but other patients are. I'm simply asking you for a solution when you can't ban the item? I've explained on detail multiple times why I think patient care and support and accomodating patient requests have a better outcome but you disagree this will work for your concerns, only a ban so I'm asking how you suggest we support patients in the same predicament where the item can't be banned?

And the vast majority of Palestinian flag wavers aren't actually Palestinian anyway.
This seems a pretty baseless assumption unless what you're doing is merging doctors who wear a pin with "flag wavers" in the street when you have no actual data or reason to show why that is? There are many doctors with family is Palestine and other countries that have been dragged into the conflict over this time, plus having colleagues who have volunteered with MSF so even if they may not be Palestinian they may feel aligned to that. It doesn't really matter though because it's apparently all patient assumption that matters.

There is literally no reason the NHS can't - tomorrow - say 'we are aligning with the other NHS services who already have this rule. You have a uniform. You cannot add random stuff to it.'

So you'll just ignore all the context I gave you of why this might be sticky given many of the items you want to ban are encouraged and even provided by the employer to staff networks as part of diversity initiatives etc. so no it's not that simple for a large diverse organisation to say "we're not doing remembrance day" or "we're not doing black history month anymore" because some may patients find your origin offensive.

Gosh at one point we thought black and white people should go to different schools! We figured that one out - because despite some people preferring the status quo, it wasn't more important than supporting the move of society in a better direction.

I don't see what this has to do with your point tbh. The status quo very much was based on people discomfort being around black people being prioritised and black people were therefore excluded. You're gonna have to reach very very hard to try and paint the push to ban signs of diversity and inclusion on as somehow akin to the push for civil rights and anti racism 🤨

But who has said anything about a religious item? I am not triggered by a hijab. Religion isn't the same as nationality. And the vast majority of Palestinian flag wavers aren't actually Palestinian anyway. Are you saying people should be restricted to represent things they actually are because that's somehow protected?

There is literally no reason the NHS can't - tomorrow - say 'we are aligning with the other NHS services who already have this rule. You have a uniform. You cannot add random stuff to it.'

There is no religion in the entire world that says anyone needs to wear a pin. There are plenty of jobs that require a uniform. It's in no way discrimination to say 'wear your scrubs, wear your hijab, wear comfy black shoes, the end'.

You say HCP 'by their nature aren't trying to hurt anyone' so... if they are indeed hurting ME then that's still true. Whatever the intent was is irrelevant. Just like lots of other times in history when people thought one thing about a choice or a rule or a law and then it turned out that was a terrible idea - people can learn from their mistakes. It might have seemed kinder to allow NHS staff to wear these pins and badges, now we are learning it's not an inherent good so we can just... change it? Just like we changed many, many things in the past.

Gosh at one point we thought black and white people should go to different schools! We figured that one out - because despite some people preferring the status quo, it wasn't more important than supporting the move of society in a better direction.

It's a very odd argument to say 'we have to keep doing this because that's what we are doing'.

So you're completely circling back to the same point I already responded to you on, which is these items are currently already allowed which is a much different legal perspective when it comes to banning them which is not just my opinion, judge also agreed it could be very sticky. You say "take the flags down" so you can again completely ignore the reasons I gave you of why you may see flags in a hospital and I guarantee you no organisation, especially one as large as the NHS, wants to now change the rules and ban staff heritage days or military staffs remembrance memorials because their flag will cause offense. That's going to be very easily challenged as possible discrimination.

I'm asking you for about the third time to tell me what the solution is when it's a religious item please? We can't ban it, so how do we support the patient to attend?

You also keep presenting things as wants in a way that is completely dismissing the reasons people wear them so you don't have to engage in any nuance on the discussion. I know it would be simpler if you really could categorise people into bad hateful people because they wear a pin, but it's actually also pretty insulting to HCPs who by nature of their job are not deliberately trying to hurt anyone and in many cases are devastated that their own HCP colleagues, some of whom are family, have been killed while trying to save people's lives, they'll also have many patients who may find attending appointments triggering thinking how their own loved one was murdered in a gazan hospital. You'll still come back and say that's a simple ' selfish want' but I don't think being so black and white really helps anyone.

Its not hard to understand, your interpretation of the law is just incorrect. It is very clear in the law that your workplace can enforce a uniform and ban certain items. A limited number of exceptions exist for based on items such a religious clothing. A flag pin is not included (irrespective of which flag it is).

No flag displayed in a hospital is required for medical reasons. Someone put them up, someone can take them down.

The solution has to differ when its a religious item (specific religious items not ones vaguely linked to a religion) because that's what the law says. The NHS balances the needs of the patient and the worker (two conflicting needs). We're not talking about two conflciting needs, we're talking about prioritising a want over a need.

Well any patient who knew her before and after would know that by becoming Mrs and changing her name she is most likely straight and can assume so. I don't know many lesbians in my circle who have ever adopted Mrs along with a change of name. So I may assume wrong sure, just as you're assuming an LGBT pin declares the person as what exactly? Gay? Bisexual? Or just someone who has people close to them who are LGBT or maybe they're just wearing it.

@ErroltheSwampDragon
I don't know why you're finding it so hard to understand that the same laws of expression are exactly why doctors are also allowed to wear LGBT lanyards or pins. You then tried to say well it will be a blanket ban on all flags in a hospital and I explained to you realistically what that would mean given how many flags are displayed for different reasons. I'm saying she doesn't care to listen or engage about the others, because every time I've brought them up no one including PP has given me an answer - if a patient has a genuine trigger over someone wearing a hijab does that justify restricting the right to wear one? No even though the patient now according to them cannot access healthcare. I'm genuinely asking what you suggest as a solution in that example? How could they be supported to attend and why when it's a religious items does the solution have to differ?

No because unless they knew her how would they know that was her husbands name
and it doesn’t indicate if she was married to a man or a woman that’s on you presuming that

This is the exact misrepresentation I referred to earlier. You take a point made about a healthcare worker and query how it relates to a patient. It doesn't.

The point made about the hjiab and kippah has been answered previously - they are protected by law, a flag pin is not. An NHS initiative obviously does not have the same grounds as a law, the NHS can choose to change its initiatives, it can't change the law.

Its unfair to accuse @PurpleThistle7 of not caring about other triggers, she's giving her personal experience but hasn't propsed only the Palestinian flag should be banned, but that all symbols that might cause distress are.

She has also not ignored the diversity initiatives but rather has clearly explained why they have no bearing on the impact of the symbols and are not an adequate mitigation.

You refer to the initiatives giving her hope that even if a doctor was wearing a "small Palestine pin" they might not mean her harm. This minimises the trauma her children have endured and is, frankly, incredibly dismissive of patients. Why on earth should we have to be hopeful that those treating us don't want to hurt us? This is an expectation.

Engaging in good faith goes both ways and while statements have been made about the opposition to the ban, I haven't seen one that honestly reflects upon the impact the symbols are having on their patients. Its either a lack of care (want over need) or not believing them (denying the impact).

Sorry if I misread but you said if your daughter encountered a flag at a hospital she would have to run out? We also need to circle back around to the fact that there are many other patients who will feel th exact same about items that can't be banned such as hijabs and kippahs being worn by someone with power over them. What I'm suggesting is that those patients concerns should be taken seriously and extra support and care provided to them and a HCP of their choosing. You don't seem to care about any patients triggers but your own and what to enact a policy that doesn't actually offer solutions. Just as you want to completely overlook the diversity initiatives which actually may or could give you hope that the Muslim doctor you see wearing a small Palestine pin isn't a hateful person who wants to harm Jewish people as you keep asserting (and then saying actually don't mean harm or hurt despite saying clearly you did mean unsafe care and physical harm) so you're really just stuck in your opinion and not open to engage in good faith with the reasons why someone might be against this initiative to ban them even while supporting patient concerns.

It needs to be banned ON STAFF. I don’t think there’s anyone who would fade into some sort of 1800s hysteria at the site of a random person wearing whatever they are wearing. It’s super simple and I don’t understand the confusion here.

If I was going to faint every time I walked past a Palestinian flag or a self satisfied keffiyeh wearer I would have died of starvation years ago. I still would feel frightened to have ambulance driver, police officer or teacher wearing one while at work. Because they have the power over me and that’s already unsettling.

Actually, I believe that is already the rule for ambulance drivers who are NHS staff so there’s an easy precedent and existing policy.

when operating as private citizens and in their own time, nhs staff as as welcome as police staff, teachers, airplane pilots or I am to wave a banner, wear whatever, engage in any sort of legal activity or hate whoever they like. While at work, isn’t not about them - it’s about their clients and patients and customers.

What have I misrepresented? I've engaged in good faith with every point and offered back the real world situation of the NHS policy and asked realistically how this can be implemented with rights competing against eachother. Even now you're saying the symbol should be banned when I've asked what we do when the symbol is still present in the hospital outside of staffs control therefore patient still unable to access care due to trauma.

I'm not refusing to examine the logic at all. You are misrepresenting my comments, deliberately or otherwise, to deflect from what I've said, while avoiding responding to my actual comments about the power imbalance. I'm not aware of any PPs that have said seeing another patient with a flag would prevent them accessing healthcare, whereas a flag displayed by a healthcare worker would.

Simply, my logic is:

1. Healthcare workers have power over their patients
2. The needs of a patient take priority over the wants of the healthcare workers
3. Displaying a symbol which may prevent someone getting the help they need, is an abuse of power based on the prioritisation of the healthcare works wants over the patients needs
4. Therefore, the symbols should be banned.

Not engaging in any of the relevant facts about these initiatives just makes you look deliberately contrarian without logic. Doesn't matter about the overall outcome just ban the pines, got it. That will fix absolutely everything I'm sure.

It's always LGBT people "announcing their sexuality". Is a consultant who just changed her title and surname to Mrs Husbandsname announcing hers or?

If they cannot enter a room with the patient there then I disagree, which is what PP has suggested. I do understand the power balance between a HCP and patient, but you're refusing to examine the logic behind your argument. If it's about being unable to access healthcare are if they see a flag, that's still an issue then so how do you suggest it's resolved?

announcing your sexuality just seems performative the that’s what most people object to about the rainbow lanyard

practically everyone ether doesn’t care ir isn’t remotely interested

You don't need a pin to do any of that.

I have literally no idea what hospitals you’re going to. Any experience I’ve had in the hospital is showing up, having a group of lovely people help me or my children, and going home. I’m saying in an emergency situation, where I am scared and in pain, being approached by someone wearing a Palestinian flag will be inherently frightening. For me, for my children, for other people for other flags. If I’m in the hospital long enough to join the staff parties I’m sure I’ll have had enough time to remember to ignore it. Front line nhs patients dealing with vulnerable and frightened people should not have the right to make them feel worse.

My children’s anxiety about this will not be on their nhs record, what an odd thing to suggest. They don’t have diagnosed PTSD, they are scared after some horrific bullying by pro Palestinian children. They are worried after watching the police show up at our synagogue and seeing the news of the shootings and stabbings and fires. This isn’t some illogical fear of spiders or monsters that I should try to work them through. I can’t tell them that people waving Palestinian flags don’t wish them harm because - as they’ve experienced - that’s simply not always true.

The thing is they will have been given lgbt badges from their own work inclusivity team, then there are the sen support badges to be an alli there, before you know it you end up full of badges so when someone offers you accept.

i agree they shouldn’t be allowed but then you would have to stop them all including poppy’s

But this, again, ignores the power imbalance which has been flagged. Another patient doesn't have power over a patient, NHS staff do.