Rude, or normal boy behaviour?

It's probably quite simple, they either don't like your dh or they don't like his partner or both. It's not easy to change this but ask yourself what sort of experience they have when the visit? Do they get listened to? Do you or your dh stick your noses in their business? Do you both come across as judgemental? If your dh is as passive as you make out, are you the boss at home and it makes for an awkward atmosphere? Do you both always come as a pair or do they have access to their dad without you being around?

It's also a bit strange for you to comment on his paying for their meals. Firstly, they must be visiting occasionally if this is something that bothers you and secondly it is very normal for parents to pay for a meal while young adults still establish themselves. It is very petty of you to mention it. They will have good reasons to avoid.

The best thing you can do is not tag along with your dh when they visit and give them space to be just family.

It would have been emotionally abusive to tell them, while they were still living with their Mum. It doesn't sound as if he helped them over the split, if that was his go to. Something has gone wrong over the years, but it's for them to sort out and they might just need to mature, have relationships and realise things aren't black and white. The not paying for things, especially under 25 is perfectly usual. The ending of the marriage is seperate to which parent children feel closer to. They feel closer to her, that can be usual. They should be messaging thanks. Unless a family relationship is abusive, you have to leave them to it, or it will just cause issues between you two. Your DP wants to play the long game, rather than cause a blow up and a no contact situation.

Not normal behaviour at all.
They sound very poorly behaved.
Tell him knock the presents on the head if they haven't the manners to thank him.

We speak to our son once a week, by FaceTime.

When we go out, we end up paying us well. I think that because ‘dad has always paid’ then that’s the default setting.

I don’t think what they are doing is unusual. They just gaven’t hit in the habitat of paying. Also, were they brought up to send ‘thank you’ letters (or texts/nessages) If not, then nothing has changed.,

It's not normal boy behaviour, they may or may not be rude, but they clearly just don't get on and don't want a close relationship unfortunately.

Completely understandable - my fault for not being more clear initially!

This is not “normal boy behaviour” (what even is that?) but I think your DH is telling himself that to make himself feel better.

OP, do you like them? l ask because for me and my sister it was very clear that my dad’s partner didn’t like us and this significantly reduced our initiation to see him. We just always felt judged and scrutinised by her. If you don’t like them (which is fair enough) then this could well be palpable for them.

If you’re going to use that he had them 3 times a week to prove what a great dad he was, then having them that much means he is equally to ‘blame’ for how they turned out. If kids are ungrateful and rude as 20 somethings, that’s generally due to their upbringing. Which you have detailed was a lot him. You really what you sow.

Absolutely not saying this is what your DH does, but my friends dad, who none of the kids have much contact with, uses expensive gifts to force contact. They don’t have much to do with him as adults but he then sends an elaborate gift and makes a big deal about how they need to thank him and how rude/ungrateful they are. It’s controlling and awful to see how much it upsets her.

DS is nearly 27 and lives 200 miles from us, so we're not in and out of each other's everyday existence. But he asks for advice when he wants it.

We have 2 sons. One left home at 17 and came back for about 2 months at 22.
The other left at 22.
We hear from them nearly every day.
They spend a lot of time with dh doing cars up as a hobby.
We ho out for everyone's birthday, including girlfriends, aunties and cousins, mothers day, fathers day and Christmas.

We go on one holiday a year together.
Ds1 cycles and hikes with us, ds2 climbs and skis with us.

Id say we are quite close.

Ds1 rang up yesterday afternoon gor a chat and ds2 rang up last night on the way to met his friend.
Ds 1 and 2 discreetly pay when the 6 of us go out for a meal ( us plus gfs)
Im saying this because uou asked what relationships are like and in all honesty my relish my sons seems typical and normal.

Op your dh's sons dont sound great at all.
They should be thanking gor presents.etc

You were the one who made the assumption your husband's DC are rude and disinterested because they're male. Not exactly a very positive view of men you've got there yourself is it?

And he didn’t take her to court for contact with his children? Hardly surprising they’re not close when he didn’t fight to see them

Not thanking for presents is rude.
Seeing mum more - pretty normal, especialyl if they didn't have much of a relationship with him growing up.
Not offering to pay - hahahahaha. I think an adult child is often much older before this occurs to them.

DH and his father would both consider themselves quite close. But they almost never speak. And I think it started when DH was a late teen and early 20s. His parents divorced while he was at univeristy.

His dad is a nice man but he's passive. He's never rung DH and asked him if he wants to do something. He's always happy to see DH but when we visit (we grew up in another country), he doesn't prioritise DH or us. He'll see us, and he's brilliant when we do see him, but he doesn't make any extra effort. He didn't come here to visit for 15 years.

It's not that he doesn't love his children, he's just always been quite passive about it. I suspect if we lived near by, it would be better because we'd invite him and he'd turn up and he is, as I say, a nice man. But he's never ever initiated anything, and that includes while Dh and his siblings were growing up.

And it does rather sound like your DH is similar. It's not because they're bad people, but a lot of men aren't good at proactively figuring out how to engage with their children or do things with them, or discover commonality and as a result, they grow up and aren't as close.

HE has to figure out if he is happy with the father-son relationships as they are or if he wants to do the work to try to change them. Your posts do sound strongly resentful, not just of the sons' behaviour now as adults but of what happened when they were children too (it sounds like they were 14 and 16 at most when the split happened - they did not have the full picture and weren't in full control of their relationships with their parents back then). If their dad also resents the past, they may be picking that up and distancing themselves. But they have no obligation to see him at all and they nevertheless are, so that suggests they do want a relationship.

If his ex provided the main home for them after the divorce, it's understandable that they are closer to her than to him. He can be honest with them now and explain why he was not honest before, but he can't turn back time. But he's best off coming up with workable, attractive suggestions to see them more, not comparing his time with them against their time with their mum.

Above all, if he wants to try to strengthen the relationships he needs to communicate and maybe - as the parent, and as a much more mature and experienced adult - do more than half of the work to facilitate the relationships, at least for now. Just for example, if he wants to give them gifts but is upset that they don't write/call to acknowledge the gifts (yes, rude and thoughtless - but perhaps more lazy and entitled than malicious) he could start giving them in person.

I hear from my adult children daily.

They very rarely have contact with their dad, because they can’t stand his new wife.

Gosh! I have two sons, both in late 20’s. I’m in the ‘teach them well and let them lead the way’ camp. They are independent men living with partners, both work in retail with long hours.

They absolutely know I am always here if they need me. When they do I am at the end of the phone or a drive away. They know this. We certainly don’t text every day, is there a need?

Different people have different expectations and we are perfectly happy with our lives.

I am no longer with their father and left it up to them to have a relationship with either of us, so long as they are happy. I honestly wouldn’t want any more than that.

Tbf, it sounds like they’re not that close and they’re not that invested in a relationship with dad. Whatever the reasons for it , it is what it is. Your DH needs to decide for himself whether to keep going like this (because something is better than nothing) or to start talking to them/try and change things ,which could backfire, or not work. Then he’s back at option 1.

You don’t get to be offended on his behalf though.

Sounds like they don’t particularly like him or enjoy his company. Buying expensive gifts does not replace having a good relationship.

It’s not normal boy behaviour. It’s rude, ungrateful adult behaviour. They sound horrible.

How would you know who's fault it was that their parents marriage split up? It takes two to tango. Would you rather his ex stayed with him forever even though she didn't love him anymore?

They're not giving him 'the runaround'. They're not asking for anything from him. He can stop sending gifts if he chooses. But if they prefer their mum that's their business, and you can't do anything to change it.

They sound rude but it’s not boy behaviour.

I have kids a similar age and wouldn’t split the bill if we ate out (and think it would be unusual to expect that from kids in their early 20s)

I think it’s also common to be closer to mum than dad regardless of why the marriage broke down. You see this pattern on relationship posts too- mum is horrible and abusive yet adult child doesn’t want to do NC. I’m not saying that the ex is horrible and abusive btw- I’m talking about the women in relationships dilemmas. I guess it’s the biological pull.

The comment about your h not telling the boys about their mother’s infidelity is odd and I suspect it has negatively impacted their relationship with dad because it’s a strangely passive route to take. Does your h like to bury his head in the sand when things are tough so he can avoid conflict? The irony of doing this is that people will be pissed off later.

It is rude not to say thanks or bring/send a gift for your partner’s birthday. Also rude to ignore people.

It sounds like your partner isn’t as frustrated as you are and that having rock bottom expectations is his way of coping with the messy situation. I think some of the reason why his kids behave like that is that they know that their dad is expecting better and that if he had 2 daughters, it wouldn’t be massively different.